Lucien Cerfaux (1883-1968): Ignored?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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billd89
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Lucien Cerfaux (1883-1968): Ignored?

Post by billd89 »

This scholar has been ignored on this forum site, presumably because he has not been translated? I've just discovered him, accidentally, in a reference to a late work that I wish to examine, esp. three pages: in L. Cerfaux and J. Tondriau, Un concurrent du Christianisme. Le culte des souverains dans la civilisation gréco-romaine (Paris 1957) pp.218-220.

encyclopedia dot com tantalizes me with this nugget:
Cerfaux's scholarly activity falls into two periods. In his first period, Cerfaux was principally interested in the New Testament environment. He devoted his time and writing to Gnosticism, the mystery religions, Alexandrine Judaism, and the Apostolic Fathers. After 1936, his main interest was New Testament exegesis.

Of course, I have just (lately) found this, his important 1924 essay. As always I am intrigued by any published pre-1938 scholars investigating the intersection of Philo, the Hermetica and Alexandrian Judaism/Jewish Gnosticism in the First C.

How is this scholar viewed, now? Dismissed, forgotten entirely?
http://areopage.net/blog/2015/06/24/kyr ... l-cerfaux/

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billd89
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Translation Help? What Book of the LXX?

Post by billd89 »

I have just finished the translation (Lucien Cerfaux “Influence des mystères sur le judaisme alexandrin avant Philon” in Le Muséon: Revue d'études orientales, XXXV, [1924]), 60 pages of French and Greek: two months later.

I'm not at all a Bible person. I CAN figure out the French equivalent of Bible Names/Book Titles 99% of the time, guessing. Here I am stumped. What does "Or. Man." translate as?

The footnote I have just translated:

... for those who possess it: “Exceeding Power is the Lord of they who fear Him; and the Name of the Lord of those who fear Him [who call upon Him, Α] (1). ...

(1) Ps., 24, 14. La deuxième partie du verset est propre aux LXX. Cf. Or. Man., 5, 3 s. La foi en la puissance du nom divin est évidemment traditionnelle. Cf. III Regn., 18, 32.
(1) Psalm 24:14. The second part of the verse is proper to the LXX. Cf. “Or. Man.” 5:3ff. Faith in the power of the Divine Name is obviously traditional. Cf. 3 Kings18:32.

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lsayre
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Re: Lucien Cerfaux (1883-1968): Ignored?

Post by lsayre »

Original Manuscript?
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billd89
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Re: "Or. Man." ???

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The second part of the verse is proper to the LXX. Cf. “Or. Man.” 5:3ff.

It's a Book (of the Bible) title abbreviated in French. Read as:
"The second part of the verse is peculiar to the Septuagint. See for example **Some Book** 5:3 (and what follows)."

I have been able to figure out every single French 'Bible' abbreviation, excepting this one.

Psalm 25:14 "κραταίωμα κύριος τῶν φοβουμένων αὐτόν καὶ τὸ ὄνομα κυρίου τῶν φοβουμένων αὐτόν καὶ ἡ διαθήκη αὐτοῦ τοῦ δηλῶσαι αὐτοῖς"
where 'the second part' is "καὶ τὸ ὄνομα κυρίου τῶν φοβουμένων αὐτόν" is the context; "5:3" should imitate that.
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Re: Lucien Cerfaux (1883-1968): Ignored?

Post by StephenGoranson »

Or. Man. may mean Oratio Manassae, Prayer of Manasseh.
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Re: Lucien Cerfaux (1883-1968): Ignored?

Post by neilgodfrey »

Ask GPT -- it says it has something to do with manuscripts.
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Re: Lucien Cerfaux (1883-1968): Ignored?

Post by Paul the Uncertain »

StephenGoranson wrote: Sun Jul 02, 2023 3:42 pm Or. Man. may mean Oratio Manassae, Prayer of Manasseh.
I think you've got it. Then "Or. Man. 5, 3" isn't "... 5:3," but just "verse 5, then verse 3."

The note is about the Psalm verse:
Exceeding Power is the Lord of they who fear Him; and the Name of the Lord of those who fear Him [who call upon Him]

First clause: Exceeding Power is the Lord of they who fear Him:
5 because no one can endure the brightness of your glory. No one can resist the fury of your threat against sinners

Second clause: and the Name of the Lord of those who fear Him [who call upon Him]
3 You set limits for the sea by speaking your command. You closed the bottomless pit, and sealed it by your powerful and glorious name.

Last edited by Paul the Uncertain on Mon Jul 03, 2023 2:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Or. Man.

Post by billd89 »

StephenGoranson wrote: Sun Jul 02, 2023 3:42 pm Or. Man. may mean Oratio Manassae, Prayer of Manasseh.
This seems a reasonable if not best guess. Prayer of Manasseh. But does the French notation 5,3 (=5:3 or 5.3) fit here?

In Cerfaux's essay, he quotes The Oracula Sibyllina as "Or. Sibyll." SO I think he is referring to this, "Oracle 5" (i.e. 5:3ff).
Last edited by billd89 on Mon Jul 03, 2023 3:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Or. Man.

Post by Paul the Uncertain »

billd89 wrote: Mon Jul 03, 2023 2:57 am
StephenGoranson wrote: Sun Jul 02, 2023 3:42 pm Or. Man. may mean Oratio Manassae, Prayer of Manasseh.
This seems a reasonable if not best guess. Prayer of Manasseh.
If that's a guess, then I can only imagine what a match would look like. Lol. Kudos, Stephen.

(Question moved and refocused from my earlier post)

In the OP, you didn't provide the original text in which the note appears. Is there anything there (discussion of textual variants, for instance) which would explain why some expositions of LXX Psalm 24:14 seem to be rendered close to the Hebrew (where it's numbered 25:14)

The Lord is the strength of them that fear him; and his covenant is to manifest [truth] to them.

https://www.ellopos.net/elpenor/greek-t ... 24&page=24

where the second part mentions the covenant rather than discussion of the Name, which seems to be the concern of the author?

Thank you for checking.
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Re: Or. Man.

Post by billd89 »

Paul the Uncertain wrote: Mon Jul 03, 2023 3:13 amIn the OP, you didn't provide the original text in which the note appears.

In my Reply (not the Original Post) raising this specific question, I provided a Link which goes directly to the page/footnote that I address;
billd89 wrote: Fri Jun 30, 2023 6:28 pmThe footnote I have just translated:

Paul the Uncertain wrote: Mon Jul 03, 2023 3:13 amIs there anything there (discussion of textual variants, for instance) which would explain why some expositions of LXX Psalm 24:14 seem to be rendered close to the Hebrew (where it's numbered 25:14)
I don't know what the Discrepancy is called by scholars, but I quickly noticed this minor discordance ('Off by One') when I started translating the Greek for myself. It isn't discussed by Cerfaux; it must be known to everyone taught, paying attention, etc. I searched: the issue is discussed in detail here and here.
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