Chrestians/Christians?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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mlinssen
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Re: Chrestians/Christians?

Post by mlinssen »

dbz wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 11:02 pm
Ben C. Smith wrote: Sun Jan 17, 2016 1:31 pm Philip 51-100.

Nag Hammadi Codex II, Pages 51-86
Nag Hammadi Codex II, Pages 51-86
98 ⲫⲓⲗⲓⲡⲡⲟⲥ ⲡⲁⲡⲟⲥⲧⲟⲗⲟⲥ ⲡⲉϫⲁϥ ϫⲉ ϊⲱⲥⲏⲫ' ⲡϩⲁⲙ'ϣⲉ' ⲁϥⲧⲱϭⲉ ⲛ̅ⲛⲟⲩⲡⲁⲣⲁⲇⲉⲓⲥⲟⲥ ϫⲉ ⲛⲉϥⲣ̅ⲭⲣⲉⲓⲁ ⲛ̅ϩⲛ̅ϣⲉ ⲉϩⲟⲩⲛ' ⲉⲧⲉϥ'ⲧⲉⲭⲛⲏ ⲛ̅ⲧⲟϥ ⲡⲉⲛⲧⲁϩⲧⲁⲙⲓⲟ ⲙ̅ⲡⲥⲧⲁⲩⲣⲟⲥ ⲉⲃⲟⲗ ϩⲛ̅ ⲛ̅ϣⲏⲛ ⲛ̅ⲧⲁϥ'ⲧⲟϭⲟⲩ ⲁⲩⲱ ⲡⲉϥϭⲣⲟϭ ⲛⲉϥ'ⲟϣⲉ ⲁⲡⲉⲛⲧⲁϥⲧⲟϭϥ' ⲛⲉ ⲡⲉϥϭⲣⲟϭ ⲡⲉ ⲓ<ⲏⲥ> ⲡⲧⲱϭⲉ ⲇⲉ ⲡⲉ ⲡⲉⲥxⲟⲥ ⲁⲗⲗⲁ ⲡϣⲏⲛ ⲙ̅ⲡⲱⲛϩ ϩⲛ̅ ⲧⲙⲏⲧⲉ ⲙ̅ⲡⲡⲁⲣⲁⲇⲉⲓⲥⲟⲥ

ⲁⲩⲱ ⲧⲃⲉⲛ̅ϫⲟⲉⲓⲧ' ⲛ̅ⲧⲁ ⲡⲉⲭⲣⲉⲓⲥⲙⲁ ϣⲱⲡⲉ ⲉⲃⲟⲗ' ⲛ̅ϩⲏⲧⲥ̅ ⲉⲃⲟⲗ ϩⲓⲧⲟⲟⲧϥ' ⲁⲧⲁⲛⲁⲥⲧⲁⲥⲓⲥ
98 Philip the apostle said, "Joseph the carpenter planted a garden because he needed wood for his trade. It was he who made the cross from the trees which he planted. His own offspring hung on that which he planted. His offspring was Jesus, and the planting was the cross." But the Tree of Life is in the middle of the Garden.

However, it is from the olive tree that we got the chrism, and from the chrism, the resurrection.

and............the-tree...of-olive.................did-the-Chrism................................become

auw t.be n-.`oeit n-ta.pe.xreisma 4w


C019b........P080-C028a.. P262-C790b............. P202-P080-Gk................. ...................... C577b



..............forth..........in-heart-of.it,....forth...........thru-him...regarding-the-resurrection.

pe ebol n-.6ht.s- ebol 6itoot.3 a.t.a

............ C034a..........P262-C714a-P041.. C034a............. P277-P035... ..............P261.1-P080-Gk.

.

nastasis.
"98". web.archive.org. 26 December 2005.
  • ⲁⲩⲱ ⲧⲃⲉⲛ̅ϫⲟⲉⲓⲧ' ⲛ̅ⲧⲁ ⲡⲉⲭⲣⲉⲓⲥⲙⲁ ϣⲱⲡⲉ ⲉⲃⲟⲗ' ⲛ̅ϩⲏⲧⲥ̅ ⲉⲃⲟⲗ ϩⲓⲧⲟⲟⲧϥ' ⲁⲧⲁⲛⲁⲥⲧⲁⲥⲓⲥ
I wouldn't rely on the "translations" of Ben, certainly without him mentioning where he got it from.
Thomas Paterson Brown has made a fine Interlinear:

https://metalogos.org/

Observe the part about fonts there, then go to

https://metalogos.org/files/ph_interlin.html

Brown has managed to present the most detailed breakdown of Thomas, Philip and Truth, yet his translation is coloured - yet completely traceable
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Re: Chrestians/Christians?

Post by dbz »

mlinssen wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 11:31 pm ...go to Brown has managed to present the most detailed breakdown of Thomas, Philip and Truth, yet his translation is coloured - yet completely traceable
Screenshot 2023-05-29 at 04-42-35 Philip 98.png
Screenshot 2023-05-29 at 04-42-35 Philip 98.png (95.13 KiB) Viewed 189821 times

and
the.tree

*.olive

did.the.Chrism

become

auw

t.be

n.`oeit

nta.pe.xreisma

4w

C019b

P080-C028a

P107-C790b


P202-P080-Gk

C577b




forth

from.heart/mind.of-it,

forth

thru.him

according-to.the.resurrection.

pe

ebol

n.6ht.s

ebol

6itoot.3

a.t.a


C034a

P262.1-C714a-P041

C034a

P277.3-P035

P261.1-P080-Gk



nastasis


"Philip 98". metalogos.org.
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Leucius Charinus
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Re: Chrestians/Christians?

Post by Leucius Charinus »

Peter Kirby wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 9:35 pmFor the known versions of the Greek text, I have seen no credible suggestions other than the words/names of "anointed" (vowel iota) or "useful" (vowel eta) despite enormous ingenuity applied to find alternatives.
http://mountainman.com.au/essenes/chres ... ristos.htm
The sources of CHRESTOS χρηστός (Strong's Number: 5543) and
CHRISTOS Χριστός (Strong's Number: 5547) in Antiquity.

Credible or otherwise Blavatsky mentions two other suggestions:

1) Chrestes: an oracle, priest and prophet.
χρησμός , ὁ, (χράω (B) A) A.oracular response, oracle,
https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/te ... y=xrhsmo/s

Pagan classics expressed more than one idea by the verb [chraomai] "consulting an oracle"; for it also means "fated," doomed by an oracle, in the sense of a sacrificial victim to its decree, or --"to the WORD"; as chresterion is not only "the seat of an oracle" but also "an offering to, or for, the oracle.'' (18) Chrestes is one who expounds or explains oracles, "a prophet, a soothsayer;" (19) and chresterios is one who belongs to, or is in the service of, an oracle, a god, or a "Master" (20); Philo Judaeus speaks of theochrestos "God-declared," or one who is declared by god, and of logia theochresta "sayings delivered by God"


2) Christes = a white-washer
I can't find any references to this in support of Blavatsky.
However Logia 47 and especially 58 from the Gospel of Philip may be related.

47. God is a dyer. Just as the good pigments which are called permanent then label the things which have been dyed in them, so it is with those whom God has colored. Because his hues are imperishable, (those who are tinted) become immortal thru his hand's coloring. Yet God immerses whomever he baptizes by an inundation of waters.

58. The Lord went into the dyeworks of Levi. He took 72 complexions, he threw them into the vat. He brought them all up white, and he says: This is how the Son of Mankind has come to you—as (a) dyer.

Has the "Son of Mankind" has come to us as a "white-washer" [Christes] ?
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Re: Chrestians/Christians?

Post by dbz »

Leucius Charinus wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 1:37 am Christes = a white-washer
p.495.png
p.495.png (130.24 KiB) Viewed 189796 times
Bromiley, Geoffrey William (1964). Theological Dictionary of the New Testament. Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing. ISBN 978-0-8028-2322-9.

χρῖσμᾰ • (khrîsma) n (genitive χρῑ́σμᾰτος); third declension
  1. anointing, unction
  2. wall coating, plaster
τὸ δὲἄλλο μέχρι τῆς στέγης χριστὸν ἦν καὶ καταπεποικιλμένον χρώμασικαὶ βαφαῖς. προσκατεσκεύασε δὲ τούτοις

tó dé állo méchri tís stégis christón ín kaí katapepoikilménon chrómasi kaí vafaís. proskateskévase dé toútois

...but the other part up to the roof, was plastered over, and, as it were, embroidered with colors and pictures. [ Book 8, section 133. perseus.tufts.edu.]

Antiquitates Judaicae, book 8, section 137. Flavius Josephus, (ed. B. Niese)
Screenshot 2023-05-29 at 10-58-05 Perseus Search Results.png
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Last edited by dbz on Mon May 29, 2023 7:06 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Leucius Charinus
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Re: Chrestians/Christians?

Post by Leucius Charinus »

Thanks dbz
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Re: Chrestians/Christians?

Post by dbz »

Leucius Charinus wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 1:37 am
2) Christes = a white-washer
I can't find any references to this in support of Blavatsky.
  • Surley it is clearly presented on Wiktionary.
Just look how good the entries are for khrēsmós and khrîsma!
χρησμός • (khrēsmós) m (genitive χρησμοῦ); second declension
  • oracle, prophecy

"χρησμός". Wiktionary. 17 January 2023.
χρῖσμᾰ • (khrîsma) n (genitive χρῑ́σμᾰτος); third declension
  1. anointing, unction
  2. wall coating, plaster

"χρῖσμα". Wiktionary. 24 August 2022.
  • So let us enter Christón and...
Χριστόν • (Christón) m
  • form of Χριστός (Christós).

"Χριστόν". Wiktionary. 12 July 2022.
  • Well, nothing about plaster or whitewash, etc., but it does link to Khristós
Ancient Greek Χριστός (Khristós).
Χριστός • (Christós) m (plural Christós)
  • (Christianity) Jesus Christ (the Messiah named Jesus)

"Χριστός §. Greek". Wiktionary. 17 March 2023.
  • Well fudge! I guess they can not all be winners :wink:
eta.
Prefix
χρυσό- • (chrysó-)
  • expressing: a golden, gold‎χρυσό- (chrysó-) + ‎μαλλιά (malliá, “hair”) → ‎χρυσόμαλλος (chrysómallos, “golden haired”)‎χρυσό- (chrysó-) + ‎ορυχείο (orycheío, “mine”) → ‎χρυσωρυχείο (chrysorycheío, “gold mine”)‎χρυσό- (chrysó-) + ‎κόκκινος (kókkinos, “red”) → ‎χρυσοκόκκινος (chrysokókkinos, “golden-red”)

"χρυσό-". Wiktionary. 28 August 2022.
χρῡσός • (chrȳsós) m (genitive χρῡσοῦ); second declension
  1. gold (substance)
  2. (poetic) something dear or precious
  3. a gold coin

"χρυσός". Wiktionary. 17 March 2023.
χρίσ-της , ου, ὁ,
  • A. white-washer, Hsch. s.v. κονιαταί.
    • II. stucco-maker, Steph. in Hp.2.397 D.
Henry George Liddell. Robert Scott. A Greek-English Lexicon. revised and augmented throughout by. Sir Henry Stuart Jones. with the assistance of. Roderick McKenzie. Oxford. Clarendon Press. 1940.
"Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, χρίσ-της". www.perseus.tufts.edu.
  • I can not find an example usage of: χρίσὁ
Last edited by dbz on Mon May 29, 2023 2:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Jesus Christ, linked to Alexandrian Brass-Worker Guild??

Post by billd89 »


Revelation 1:15: And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
...........................................χαλκολιβάνῳ .......... καμίνῳ πεπυρωμένης ................................. ὑδάτων πολλῶν

Dated c.AD 95, the reign of the Roman emperor Domitian (AD 81–96), perhaps the unknown author references JC's purported Egyptian training in this passage? Alexandria was a major brassworking center in Antiquity, and the likeliest center of 'Gnosticism' in the First C. This verse might point to another Jesus-Alexandria connection, I suppose; Morton Smith never picked up on it.

As an aside, recall a somewhat recent artefact discussed here.

Specifically I wonder if these three qualifiers in one passage hint at an Egyptian origin for Christ:
1. "Fine Brass" or Bronze: Nicanor's brass gate for the Temple, and its expert repairmen generally.
2. "Burned in a furnace", i.e. Al-chemia: Judeo-Egyptian alchemist guilds linked to Zosimos, etc.
3. "Many Waters" of the Nile: see Anonymus Florentinus «Περί τῆς τοῦ Νείλου ἀναπληρώσεως διάφοραι δόξα» on its source-waters.


Also this (generally), evoking a possible connection of the Bezalel-Bes-Harpocrates theme to the minim Alexandrian Braziers*:
billd89 wrote: Wed Oct 19, 2022 2:07 amBezalel was obviously suited to have been the 'patron-saint' of the ancient Alexandrian brassworkers' guild (i.e. Braziers), the notorious 'Synagogue of the Libertinos' at Jerusalem. Why were the Libertines deemed Minim, again? (Harpocratians were scandalously 'libertine' we are told.) Maybe it's all a coincidence?
fwiw, John H. C. Pippy's Egyptian Origin of the Book of Revelation [2011] has not found any critical acceptance and I have not read it to have any opinion.

* there Rev. Lightfoot connects this passage to Azazel (Horon: the Scapegoat); Azazael is nearly synonymous w/ Baal-Zeboul (Jesus' Father) again!

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Re: Chrestians/Christians?

Post by Peter Kirby »

mlinssen wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 9:50 pm But love your enemies, do good [to them] , and lend [to them] , expecting nothing in return. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He is kind to the ungrateful and wicked.

Or do you disregard the riches of His kindness, tolerance, and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness leads you to repentance?

Be kind [and] tender-hearted to one another, forgiving each other just as in Christ God forgave you.
Good point. The word "kind" does cover more of the uses of the word.
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Re: "Wicked"?

Post by billd89 »


(BSB)But love your enemies, do good [to them], and lend [to them], expecting nothing in return. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He is kind to the ungrateful and wicked.
(THGNT)
πλὴν ἀγαπᾶτε τοὺς ἐχθροὺς ὑμῶν καὶ ἀγαθοποιεῖτε καὶ δανίζετε μηδὲν ἀπελπίζοντες· καὶ ἔσται ὁ μισθὸς ὑμῶν πολύς, καὶ ἔσεσθε υἱοὶ ὑψίστου, ὅτι αὐτὸς χρηστός ἐστιν ἐπὶ τοὺς ἀχαρίστους καὶ πονηρούς.

But πονηρούς means "miserable" or "aggrieved" -- namely, those who suffer terrible circumstance but who are NOT "evil" per se. This means God is 'good' to those in misery -- rather than shitbags. I also wonder if ἀχαρίστους might be better understood as unpleasing/ungracious, if those fated to be stupid and ugly are also rude, 'ungrateful' (as often seems the case) for their circumstance.

I just came across this same facile error in Cerfaux’s translation of De Mutatione Nominum 19 (he has : φαύλων = "méchants"), and méchant does translate as "wicked." But no, that's not right: God is with the Not-So-Good who are rather, base: see also 'mean' (limited, deficient), or ill. The φαύλων are a broad category "Defective," which is not to say they're outright Evil or even "wicked" either:

19. δικαιοῖ γὰρ τῶν μὲν φαύλων λέγεσθαι κύριος καὶ δεσπότης, τῶν δ' ἐν προκοπαῖς καὶ βελτιώσεσι θεός, τῶν δ' ἀρίστων καὶ τελειοτάτων ἀμφότερον, κύριος ὁμοῦ καὶ θεός.

I will be taught by his own interpreter there, Logos, that He is not be understood as presently speaking about the Cosmos, of which He is the All-Maker and God, but about men’s souls, all which in His eyes are worthy to be cared for alike, justified even being called ‘Lord and Master’ by those said to be base (i.e. indifferent, inefficient); ‘God’ of those who are on the way to moral progress and improvement, to those who are advancing and undergoing perfectioning, both ‘Kyrios and God’.

Once you grasp that Philo's language is both metaphysical and orderly, it's clear there are three distinct categories of Souls under God's kindly care in this model: the Defectives (Category 3) who are redeemable; the Progressives (Category 2) who are aimed at bettering themselves, and the actively Perfectioning (Category 1): the Aletheian Anthropoi or Holy Man/Therapeutae-stage.
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Leucius Charinus
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Re: Chrestians/Christians?

Post by Leucius Charinus »

dbz wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 9:16 am
Leucius Charinus wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 1:37 am
2) Christes = a white-washer
I can't find any references to this in support of Blavatsky.
  • Surley it is clearly presented on Wiktionary.
Just look how good the entries are for khrēsmós and khrîsma!
χρησμός • (khrēsmós) m (genitive χρησμοῦ); second declension
  • oracle, prophecy

"χρησμός". Wiktionary. 17 January 2023.
χρῖσμᾰ • (khrîsma) n (genitive χρῑ́σμᾰτος); third declension
  1. anointing, unction
  2. wall coating, plaster

"χρῖσμα". Wiktionary. 24 August 2022.
  • So let us enter Christón and...
Χριστόν • (Christón) m
  • form of Χριστός (Christós).

"Χριστόν". Wiktionary. 12 July 2022.
  • Well, nothing about plaster or whitewash, etc., but it does link to Khristós
Ancient Greek Χριστός (Khristós).
Χριστός • (Christós) m (plural Christós)
  • (Christianity) Jesus Christ (the Messiah named Jesus)

"Χριστός §. Greek". Wiktionary. 17 March 2023.
  • Well fudge! I guess they can not all be winners :wink:
eta.
Prefix
χρυσό- • (chrysó-)
  • expressing: a golden, gold‎χρυσό- (chrysó-) + ‎μαλλιά (malliá, “hair”) → ‎χρυσόμαλλος (chrysómallos, “golden haired”)‎χρυσό- (chrysó-) + ‎ορυχείο (orycheío, “mine”) → ‎χρυσωρυχείο (chrysorycheío, “gold mine”)‎χρυσό- (chrysó-) + ‎κόκκινος (kókkinos, “red”) → ‎χρυσοκόκκινος (chrysokókkinos, “golden-red”)

"χρυσό-". Wiktionary. 28 August 2022.
χρῡσός • (chrȳsós) m (genitive χρῡσοῦ); second declension
  1. gold (substance)
  2. (poetic) something dear or precious
  3. a gold coin

"χρυσός". Wiktionary. 17 March 2023.
χρίσ-της , ου, ὁ,
  • A. white-washer, Hsch. s.v. κονιαταί.
    • II. stucco-maker, Steph. in Hp.2.397 D.
Henry George Liddell. Robert Scott. A Greek-English Lexicon. revised and augmented throughout by. Sir Henry Stuart Jones. with the assistance of. Roderick McKenzie. Oxford. Clarendon Press. 1940.
"Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, χρίσ-της". www.perseus.tufts.edu.
  • I can not find an example usage of: χρίσὁ
Thanks for these Wiktionary references dbz. The site has changed greatly in the last 10 years.
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