Chrestians/Christians?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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StephenGoranson
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Chrestians/Christians?

Post by StephenGoranson »

Other than a trivial spelling issue,
do these "two" have distinct
beliefs
practices
myths
rituals
scriptures
histories...?
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mlinssen
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Re: Chrestians/Christians?

Post by mlinssen »

StephenGoranson wrote: Fri May 05, 2023 10:23 am Other than a trivial spelling issue,
do these "two" have distinct
beliefs
practices
myths
rituals
scriptures
histories...?
Oh go on then Stiphin, please explain why it is trivial.
May I remind you of the picture that unfolds when going through all extant MSS that have been transcribed so far?

Image

I can answer your question after that, ta
Secret Alias
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Re: Chrestians/Christians?

Post by Secret Alias »

Hebrew?
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Leucius Charinus
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Re: Chrestians/Christians?

Post by Leucius Charinus »

Hebrew
No it's a Greek term with a Roman suffix. But that's how a Māori chaplain greets a Jewish Rabbi in a Kiwi bar.
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mlinssen
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Re: Chrestians/Christians?

Post by mlinssen »

Secret Alias wrote: Fri May 05, 2023 10:55 am Hebrew?
Yes, for magical reasons my spell check frequently turns "have" into "Hebrew". It must be the way I swipe, as it happens on all phones regardless of keyboards and software

What's worse, a new phenomenon has presented itself and sometimes a word will now end with a hyphen.
And that happens on my phone, my private laptop, and work laptop

I think I'm being monitored - or going nuts
Secret Alias
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Re: Chrestians/Christians?

Post by Secret Alias »

This is the most compelling argument for "Chrestoi" (forget this nonsense about "Chrestianity") being the original name of the community (and hence "Chrestos" being the name of the Savior). It is from the Sixth Book of the Stromateis and appears in a critical discussion of the Ten Commandments (presumably a central theme in Clement) and even mentions the title of the book Celsus might be responding to i.e. "the true word" (which itself might have something to do with the ten commandments. Here is the passage:
Now the fifth in order is the command on the honour of father and mother ...

6.16.146.1 Ὁ δὲ πέμπτος ἑξῆς ἐστι λόγος περὶ τιμῆς πατρὸς καὶ μητρός ...

This is followed by the command respecting adultery. Now it is adultery, if one, abandoning the ecclesiastical and true knowledge, and the persuasion respecting God, accedes to false and incongruous opinion, either by deifying any created object, or by making an idol of anything that exists not, so as to overstep, or rather step from, knowledge ...

6.16.146.3 Ἕπεται τούτῳ ὁ περὶ μοιχείας λόγος. μοιχεία δ' ἐστίν, ἐάν τις καταλιπὼν τὴν ἐκκλησιαστικὴν καὶ ἀληθῆ γνῶσιν καὶ τὴν περὶ θεοῦ διάληψιν ἐπὶ τὴν μὴ προσήκουσαν ἔρχηται ψευδῆ δόξαν, ἤτοι θεοποιῶν τι τῶν γενητῶν ἢ καὶ ἀνειδωλοποιῶν τι τῶν μὴ ὄντων εἰς ὑπέρβασιν, μᾶλλον δὲ ἔκβασιν γνώσεως ...

Then follows the command about murder. Now murder is a sure destruction. He, then, that wishes to extirpate the true doctrine of God and of immortality, in order to introduce. falsehood, alleging either that the universe is not under Providence, or that the world is uncrested, or affirming anything against true doctrine, is most pernicious ...

6.16.147.2 Ἔπειτα ὁ περὶ φόνου λόγος ἐπακολουθεῖ. φόνος δὲ ἔξαρσίς ἐστι βιαία. τὸν οὖν ἀληθῆ λόγον περὶ θεοῦ καὶ τῆς ἀιδιότητος αὐτοῦ ὁ βουλόμενος ἐξαίρειν, ἵνα τὸ ψεῦδος ἐγκρίνῃ, λέγων ἤτοι ἀπρονόητον εἶναι τὸ πᾶν ἢ τὸν κόσμον ἀγένητον ἢ τῶν κατὰ τὴν ἀληθῆ διδασκαλίαν βεβαίων ** ἐξωλέστατος ...

And after this is the command respecting theft ...

6.16.147.3 Μετὰ δὲ τοῦτον ὁ περὶ κλοπῆς ἐστι λόγος ...

And the tenth is the command respecting all lusts ...

6.16.148.4 ∆έκατος δέ ἐστιν ὁ περὶ ἐπιθυμιῶν ἁπασῶν λόγος ...

For as art changes the light of the sun into fire by passing it through a glass vessel full of water, so also philosophy, catching a spark from the divine Scripture, is visible in a few. Also, as all animals breathe the same air, some in one way, others in another, and to a different purpose; so also a considerable number of people occupy themselves with the truth, or rather with discourse concerning the truth. For they do not say aught respecting God, but expound Him by attributing their own affections to God. For they spend life in seeking the probable, not the true. But truth is not taught by imitation, but by instruction. For it is not that we may seem good that we believe in Christ, as it is not alone for the purpose of being seen, while in the sun, that we pass into the sun. But in the one case for the purpose of being warmed; and in the other, we are compelled to be Christians in order to be excellent and good. For the kingdom belongs pre-eminently to the violent, who, from investigation, and study, and discipline, reap this fruit, that they become kings.

ναὶ μὴν ὡς τὸν αὐτὸν ἀέρα ἀναπνεῖ τὰ ζῷα ἅπαντα, ἄλλα δὲ ἄλλως καὶ εἴς τι διάφορον, οὕτως δὲ καὶ τὴν ἀλήθειαν μετίασιν οἱ πλείους, μᾶλ6.17.149.4 λον δὲ τὸν περὶ ἀληθείας λόγον. οὐ γὰρ περὶ θεοῦ τι λέγουσιν. ἀλλὰ τὰ ἑαυτῶν πάθη ἐπὶ θεὸν ἀνάγοντες ἐξηγοῦνται. γέγονεν γὰρ αὐτοῖς ὁ βίος τὸ πιθανὸν ζητοῦσιν, οὐ τὸ ἀληθές· ἐκ μιμήσεως δὲ 6.17.149.5 ἀλήθεια οὐ διδάσκεται, ἀλλ' ἐκ μαθήσεως. οὐ γὰρ ἵνα δόξωμεν εἶναι <χρηστοί, εἰς> Χριστὸν πιστεύομεν, καθάπερ οὐδὲ εἰς τὸν ἥλιον ἕνεκά γε τοῦ φαίνεσθαι μόνον ἐν ἡλίῳ ὄντας παρερχόμεθα, ἀλλ' ἐνταῦθα μὲν τοῦ ἀλεαίνεσθαι χάριν, ἐκεῖ δὲ τοῦ εἶναι καλοὶ καὶ ἀγαθοὶ ἕνεκα Χριστιανοὶ εἶναι βιαζόμεθα, ὅτι μάλιστα βιαστῶν ἐστιν ἡ βασιλεία, ἐκ ζητήσεως καὶ μαθήσεως καὶ συνασκήσεως τελείας τὸ 6.17.150.1 γενέσθαι βασιλέα καρπουμένων.
I put the passage from Clement in red because it seems to echo a garbled passage from Irenaeus about the followers of Mark where they are compared to Anaximander the magician who among his tricks was said to have shone light in water.

I still wonder whether Celsus was written in response to Clement. Too many parallels. Yes some of them can be attributed to Justin. But why is the work (mockingly) called "the true word." Perhaps because of this passage. This passage seems to have some sort of gravity. The discussion of the ten commandments immediately followed by a reference to the "true word" followed by a definition of followers of Christos/Chrestos as chrestoi. I don't know. Seems to be something important here relegated to some obscure corner of a new work called the Stromateis, a "miscellanies."
StephenGoranson
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Re: Chrestians/Christians?

Post by StephenGoranson »

Associating separate words is sometimes called folk etymology or etymythology.
lclapshaw
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Re: Chrestians/Christians?

Post by lclapshaw »

Secret Alias wrote: Sat May 06, 2023 6:33 am This is the most compelling argument for "Chrestoi" (forget this nonsense about "Chrestianity") being the original name of the community (and hence "Chrestos" being the name of the Savior). It is from the Sixth Book of the Stromateis and appears in a critical discussion of the Ten Commandments (presumably a central theme in Clement) and even mentions the title of the book Celsus might be responding to i.e. "the true word" (which itself might have something to do with the ten commandments. Here is the passage:
Now the fifth in order is the command on the honour of father and mother ...

6.16.146.1 Ὁ δὲ πέμπτος ἑξῆς ἐστι λόγος περὶ τιμῆς πατρὸς καὶ μητρός ...

This is followed by the command respecting adultery. Now it is adultery, if one, abandoning the ecclesiastical and true knowledge, and the persuasion respecting God, accedes to false and incongruous opinion, either by deifying any created object, or by making an idol of anything that exists not, so as to overstep, or rather step from, knowledge ...

6.16.146.3 Ἕπεται τούτῳ ὁ περὶ μοιχείας λόγος. μοιχεία δ' ἐστίν, ἐάν τις καταλιπὼν τὴν ἐκκλησιαστικὴν καὶ ἀληθῆ γνῶσιν καὶ τὴν περὶ θεοῦ διάληψιν ἐπὶ τὴν μὴ προσήκουσαν ἔρχηται ψευδῆ δόξαν, ἤτοι θεοποιῶν τι τῶν γενητῶν ἢ καὶ ἀνειδωλοποιῶν τι τῶν μὴ ὄντων εἰς ὑπέρβασιν, μᾶλλον δὲ ἔκβασιν γνώσεως ...

Then follows the command about murder. Now murder is a sure destruction. He, then, that wishes to extirpate the true doctrine of God and of immortality, in order to introduce. falsehood, alleging either that the universe is not under Providence, or that the world is uncrested, or affirming anything against true doctrine, is most pernicious ...

6.16.147.2 Ἔπειτα ὁ περὶ φόνου λόγος ἐπακολουθεῖ. φόνος δὲ ἔξαρσίς ἐστι βιαία. τὸν οὖν ἀληθῆ λόγον περὶ θεοῦ καὶ τῆς ἀιδιότητος αὐτοῦ ὁ βουλόμενος ἐξαίρειν, ἵνα τὸ ψεῦδος ἐγκρίνῃ, λέγων ἤτοι ἀπρονόητον εἶναι τὸ πᾶν ἢ τὸν κόσμον ἀγένητον ἢ τῶν κατὰ τὴν ἀληθῆ διδασκαλίαν βεβαίων ** ἐξωλέστατος ...

And after this is the command respecting theft ...

6.16.147.3 Μετὰ δὲ τοῦτον ὁ περὶ κλοπῆς ἐστι λόγος ...

And the tenth is the command respecting all lusts ...

6.16.148.4 ∆έκατος δέ ἐστιν ὁ περὶ ἐπιθυμιῶν ἁπασῶν λόγος ...

For as art changes the light of the sun into fire by passing it through a glass vessel full of water, so also philosophy, catching a spark from the divine Scripture, is visible in a few. Also, as all animals breathe the same air, some in one way, others in another, and to a different purpose; so also a considerable number of people occupy themselves with the truth, or rather with discourse concerning the truth. For they do not say aught respecting God, but expound Him by attributing their own affections to God. For they spend life in seeking the probable, not the true. But truth is not taught by imitation, but by instruction. For it is not that we may seem good that we believe in Christ, as it is not alone for the purpose of being seen, while in the sun, that we pass into the sun. But in the one case for the purpose of being warmed; and in the other, we are compelled to be Christians in order to be excellent and good. For the kingdom belongs pre-eminently to the violent, who, from investigation, and study, and discipline, reap this fruit, that they become kings.

ναὶ μὴν ὡς τὸν αὐτὸν ἀέρα ἀναπνεῖ τὰ ζῷα ἅπαντα, ἄλλα δὲ ἄλλως καὶ εἴς τι διάφορον, οὕτως δὲ καὶ τὴν ἀλήθειαν μετίασιν οἱ πλείους, μᾶλ6.17.149.4 λον δὲ τὸν περὶ ἀληθείας λόγον. οὐ γὰρ περὶ θεοῦ τι λέγουσιν. ἀλλὰ τὰ ἑαυτῶν πάθη ἐπὶ θεὸν ἀνάγοντες ἐξηγοῦνται. γέγονεν γὰρ αὐτοῖς ὁ βίος τὸ πιθανὸν ζητοῦσιν, οὐ τὸ ἀληθές· ἐκ μιμήσεως δὲ 6.17.149.5 ἀλήθεια οὐ διδάσκεται, ἀλλ' ἐκ μαθήσεως. οὐ γὰρ ἵνα δόξωμεν εἶναι <χρηστοί, εἰς> Χριστὸν πιστεύομεν, καθάπερ οὐδὲ εἰς τὸν ἥλιον ἕνεκά γε τοῦ φαίνεσθαι μόνον ἐν ἡλίῳ ὄντας παρερχόμεθα, ἀλλ' ἐνταῦθα μὲν τοῦ ἀλεαίνεσθαι χάριν, ἐκεῖ δὲ τοῦ εἶναι καλοὶ καὶ ἀγαθοὶ ἕνεκα Χριστιανοὶ εἶναι βιαζόμεθα, ὅτι μάλιστα βιαστῶν ἐστιν ἡ βασιλεία, ἐκ ζητήσεως καὶ μαθήσεως καὶ συνασκήσεως τελείας τὸ 6.17.150.1 γενέσθαι βασιλέα καρπουμένων.
I put the passage from Clement in red because it seems to echo a garbled passage from Irenaeus about the followers of Mark where they are compared to Anaximander the magician who among his tricks was said to have shone light in water.

I still wonder whether Celsus was written in response to Clement. Too many parallels. Yes some of them can be attributed to Justin. But why is the work (mockingly) called "the true word." Perhaps because of this passage. This passage seems to have some sort of gravity. The discussion of the ten commandments immediately followed by a reference to the "true word" followed by a definition of followers of Christos/Chrestos as chrestoi. I don't know. Seems to be something important here relegated to some obscure corner of a new work called the Stromateis, a "miscellanies."
Why isn't Clement using the nomina sacra? Or did he in the original and the copy that you are quoting from has been "cleaned up" in the translation.
Secret Alias
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Re: Chrestians/Christians?

Post by Secret Alias »

Clement abbreviated words. Christian is usually not abbreviated.
lclapshaw
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Re: Chrestians/Christians?

Post by lclapshaw »

Secret Alias wrote: Sat May 06, 2023 9:43 am Clement abbreviated words. Christian is usually not abbreviated.
Interesting. When does the material that you are quoting date from?
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