David Trobisch "What if everything was just made up? About literature and the experience of resonance"

[Secret Alias]

"Was, wenn alles nur erfunden wäre? Über Literatur und Resonanzerfahrung"

In "What if Everything Were Just a Fabrication? On Literature and Resonance Experience," David Trobisch discusses the idea of narratives and their role in shaping the understanding of religious texts and beliefs. Trobisch raises the question of what would happen if the stories of Jesus and his early followers were merely literary creations of the second century to meet the expectations of the audience. He explores the concept of Marcionite priority, which suggests that the Canonical Edition of the New Testament is not the first edition, but a revised and expanded version of an older edition associated with the Marcionite and other Christian movements. This theory challenges traditional explanations for literal similarities within the Four-Gospel Book and suggests that the Jesus tradition in the canonical New Testament may be an imaginative embellishment of an older publication. Trobisch compares literature to other art forms like paintings, sculptures, and music, which become significant when people gather around them and share in the experience. He argues that literature can create a narrative world that transcends time and space, engaging readers and offering them hope for a life better than their current existence. This view of literature raises theological questions, especially when applied to religious texts. If the sources of the Marcionite edition are considered imaginative narratives, it challenges the certainty of Christian theology and the historical reliability of the New Testament. However, Trobisch highlights the importance of the resonance of the audience in giving meaning to religious texts. The individual writings of the New Testament gain significance through the editorial framing narrative of the collection and the context in which they are read. Despite the uncertainty surrounding the historical reliability of religious texts, Trobisch posits that nothing would change as long as people continue to navigate the narrative world together, finding meaning and connection in the stories that shape their understanding of the world.

https://www.academia.edu/101329132/_Was ... card=title

[Giuseppe]

Thank you!

What I have found particularly interesting is the emphasis on the descent of Jesus already adult, as found in the Earliest Gospel, as enough evidence to move someone to doubt the rest of the story: something that apparently would have prevented the author from writing the same article under the assumption of the Markan priority.

In whiletime, the question: is he a Jesus mythicist? Is he a Paul mythicist?

Do you know something?

[MrMacSon]

This would seem to be a chapter or article in the book, Resonanzen: Gerd Theißen zum 80. Geburtstag ("Resonances: Gerd Theissen on his 80th birthday"). Gerd Theißen's 80th birthday was on 24 April.

https://www.penguinrandomhouse.de/ebook ... 613028.rhd
https://www.amazon.de/-/en/Petra-von-Ge ... 8&qid=&sr=

[lclapshaw]

"Was, wenn alles nur erfunden wäre? Über Literatur und Resonanzerfahrung"

In "What if Everything Were Just a Fabrication? On Literature and Resonance Experience," David Trobisch discusses the idea of narratives and their role in shaping the understanding of religious texts and beliefs. Trobisch raises the question of what would happen if the stories of Jesus and his early followers were merely literary creations of the second century to meet the expectations of the audience. He explores the concept of Marcionite priority, which suggests that the Canonical Edition of the New Testament is not the first edition, but a revised and expanded version of an older edition associated with the Marcionite and other Christian movements. This theory challenges traditional explanations for literal similarities within the Four-Gospel Book and suggests that the Jesus tradition in the canonical New Testament may be an imaginative embellishment of an older publication. Trobisch compares literature to other art forms like paintings, sculptures, and music, which become significant when people gather around them and share in the experience. He argues that literature can create a narrative world that transcends time and space, engaging readers and offering them hope for a life better than their current existence. This view of literature raises theological questions, especially when applied to religious texts. If the sources of the Marcionite edition are considered imaginative narratives, it challenges the certainty of Christian theology and the historical reliability of the New Testament. However, Trobisch highlights the importance of the resonance of the audience in giving meaning to religious texts. The individual writings of the New Testament gain significance through the editorial framing narrative of the collection and the context in which they are read. Despite the uncertainty surrounding the historical reliability of religious texts, Trobisch posits that nothing would change as long as people continue to navigate the narrative world together, finding meaning and connection in the stories that shape their understanding of the world.

https://www.academia.edu/101329132/_Was ... card=title

So. Pretty much like it is now.

[nightshadetwine]

Is he talking about Paul's letters too? Does he think the supposed "visions" Paul claims people had of Jesus is just made up? I definitely think the Gospels and Acts are mostly made up.

[neilgodfrey]

Is he talking about Paul's letters too? Does he think the supposed "visions" Paul claims people had of Jesus is just made up? I definitely think the Gospels and Acts are mostly made up.

Here is a translation of what he wrote about Paul's letters in the chapter:

Pauline epistles

Art creates a narrative world in which people play roles on virtual stages, independent of space and time.

"What I could find of the story of the poor [...] I have collected with diligence and present it to you here, knowing that you will thank me for it. You cannot deny your admiration and love for his spirit and character, and your tears for his fate."

"And you, good soul, who feels the urge like him, draw comfort from his suffering, and let this booklet be your friend if you cannot find a closer one because of fate or your own fault."

Goethe includes these lines with the letters of "poor Werther" when he presents them to the public. The letters do not have to be real, and the events do not have to have occurred to become significant to others. These sentences could also be used as an introduction to the Pauline epistles or most books of the second century that deal with Jesus.

[neilgodfrey]

Thank you!

What I have found particularly interesting is the emphasis on the descent of Jesus already adult, as found in the Earliest Gospel, as enough evidence to move someone to doubt the rest of the story: something that apparently would have prevented the author from writing the same article under the assumption of the Markan priority.

In whiletime, the question: is he a Jesus mythicist? Is he a Paul mythicist?

Do you know something?

Here is what he wrote about Jesus:

Jesus of Nazareth

The New Testament, as a product of the second century, knows nothing about Jesus from its own experience. Sources that apparently describe historical events independently of the canonical edition, such as the writings of Josephus, were also available to the canonical editors and therefore only describe the state of information of the second century, and cannot be used to verify the historical reliability of the New Testament. A methodically secured tracing of the Christological ideas of the canonical edition, the Marcionite edition, the Apocryphon of John, or the Second Logos of the great Seth to the historical Jesus of Nazareth is hardly possible. Along with the more than fifty other books about Jesus from this time, they reflect Christological ideas of the second century. The information about Jesus and his early followers that shaped the canonical edition and its impact comes from a single literary source: the Marcionite edition.

What if the stories of Jesus and the writings of his early followers in the canonical edition are literary attempts of the second century to tell a specific audience what they wanted to hear? Something that resonated with them? Something that gave them hope for a life that was better than what they experienced here on Earth?

That's pretty much what Bruno Bauer argued. The gospels are products of a community that has matured enough to imagine its own experiences projected into the life and teaching of a single person. Hence the gospels.

Trobisch can get away with saying stuff like that because he's proven himself to be a stable kosher entity. If someone suspected in advance of not believing in the historicity of Jesus tried to say those same words they would be shouted down, cast out and stoned.

[Secret Alias]

He's also a mensch. A genuinely good person with actual expertise with manuscripts. We were THIS close to watching KD play the Thunder just after his trade. Two ships passing in the night. He also saved Quenton Quesnell's papers. Arranged to put them at Smith Library. Has brilliant insight. And he's an African mzungu. Can't beat that.

[Giuseppe]

a stable kosher entity.

what does it mean?

[neilgodfrey]

a stable kosher entity.

what does it mean?

a respectable member of the mainstream

(notice how Brodie then Davies waited till they were on the point of retirement or death before "coming out" with their explicit sympathies with the questions mythicists raised)