David Trobisch "What if everything was just made up? About literature and the experience of resonance"

[Steven Avery]

And could he explain why he talked of Codex Sinaiticus as being hundreds of years after the deeply entrenched scholarship canonical consensus date?
c. AD 600-700

[Kunigunde Kreuzerin]

Literatur als Kunst

Literature as art

Die Markionitische Ausgabe ist keine anonyme Ausgabe. Da sie neben dem Evangelium auch zehn Paulusbriefe enthält, wird Paulus als Herausgeber impliziert. Im Galaterbrief und im 1. Korintherbrief nimmt der literarische Paulus Bezug auf das eine Evangelium, das ihm überliefert wurde. Paulus ist nicht Autor des Evangeliums, er ist Herausgeber. Wenn man dieses markionitische Evangelium mit den anderen christlichen Publikationen des zweiten Jahrhunderts vergleicht, ...

The Markionite edition is not an anonymous edition. Since it contains ten Pauline epistles in addition to the Evangelium, Paul is implied as the editor. In Galatians and 1 Corinthians, the literary Paul refers to the one gospel that was handed down to him. Paul is not the author of the Evangelium, he is the editor. If one compares this Marcionite gospel with the other Christian publications of the second century, it is reasonable to conclude that the Jesus stories could be fictitious. Their relevance for readers of the second century ...

Trobisch is just another unscientific storyteller. Everyone knows that Paul understands the term "εὐαγγέλιον" in the original sense of the word and thus means his proclamation and preaching and not a written Jesus story. But that doesn't bother people like Vinzent or Trobisch at all. Against better knowledge. They simply continue to spin their Markionite yarn. The McGrath's and Casey's among the mythicists ...

[MrMacSon]

Trobisch is just another unscientific storyteller. Everyone knows that Paul understands the term "εὐαγγέλιον" in the original sense of the word and thus means his proclamation and preaching and not a written Jesus story. But that doesn't bother people like Vinzent or Trobisch at all. Against better knowledge. They simply continue to spin their Markionite yarn. The McGrath's and Casey's among the mythicists ...

Galatians 1:6-9:

⁶ I am amazed how quickly you are deserting the One who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel — ⁷ which is not even a gospel. Evidently some people are troubling you and trying to distort the gospel of Christ.

⁸ But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be under a curse! ⁹ As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be under a curse!

Galatians 1:11 -

. For I certify to you, brothers, that the gospel I preached was not 'according to' man

- is likely rhetoric

Galatians 2:1-2 -

1 Fourteen years later I went up again to Jerusalem, accompanied by Barnabas. I took Titus along also. 2 I went in response to a revelation and set before them the gospel that I preach among the Gentiles.

- suggests a physical text.


Galatians 2:4-5 -

... some false brothers had come in under false pretenses to spy on our freedom in Christ Jesus, in order to enslave us. 5 We did not give in to them for a moment, so that the truth of the gospel would remain with you.

- sounds definitive for a set gospel ie. a written one.


Galatians 2:7-8

... they saw that I had been entrusted to preach the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been to the circumcised. 8 For the One who was at work in Peter’s apostleship to the circumcised was also at work in my apostleship to the Gentiles.

When Paul confronts Cephas in Galatians 2:11-14, he says in v.14:

When I saw that they were not walking in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in front of them all, “If you, who are a Jew, live like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how can you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?”

Galatians 3:8 suggests the gospel had it's origins in [a version of] the Hebrew Bible:

The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and foretold the gospel to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.”

Galatians 4:13-16 is a mixed bag / a bit weird:

You know that it was because of an illness that I first preached the gospel to you. 14 And although my illness was a trial to you, you did not despise or reject me. Instead, you welcomed me as if I were an angel of God, as if I were Christ Jesus Himself. 15 What then has become of your blessing? For I can testify that, if it were possible, you would have torn out your eyes and given them to me. 16 Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth?

1 Corinthians 15:1-4:

Now I make known to you, brothers, the gospel which I proclaimed to you, which you have also received, in which you also stand, 2 by which you are also being saved, if you hold fast to the message I proclaimed to you, unless you believed to no purpose. 3 For I passed on to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures, 4 and that he was buried, and that he was raised up on the third day according to the scriptures ...

"the gospel which I proclaimed to you, which you have also received" suggests a written copy was left with them.


2 Corinthians 11:4:

For if someone comes and proclaims a Jesus other than the One we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit than the One you received, or a different gospel than the one you accepted, you put up with it way too easily.

[Secret Alias]

Watch out KK. I'm telling him what you said in Chemnitz tonight

[Kunigunde Kreuzerin]

Watch out KK. I'm telling him what you said in Chemnitz tonight

He'll throw the "Nischel" at me in a rage

[Irish1975]

Literatur als Kunst

Literature as art

Die Markionitische Ausgabe ist keine anonyme Ausgabe. Da sie neben dem Evangelium auch zehn Paulusbriefe enthält, wird Paulus als Herausgeber impliziert. Im Galaterbrief und im 1. Korintherbrief nimmt der literarische Paulus Bezug auf das eine Evangelium, das ihm überliefert wurde. Paulus ist nicht Autor des Evangeliums, er ist Herausgeber. Wenn man dieses markionitische Evangelium mit den anderen christlichen Publikationen des zweiten Jahrhunderts vergleicht, ...

The Markionite edition is not an anonymous edition. Since it contains ten Pauline epistles in addition to the Evangelium, Paul is implied as the editor. In Galatians and 1 Corinthians, the literary Paul refers to the one gospel that was handed down to him. Paul is not the author of the Evangelium, he is the editor. If one compares this Marcionite gospel with the other Christian publications of the second century, it is reasonable to conclude that the Jesus stories could be fictitious. Their relevance for readers of the second century ...

Trobisch is just another unscientific storyteller. Everyone knows that Paul understands the term "εὐαγγέλιον" in the original sense of the word and thus means his proclamation and preaching and not a written Jesus story. But that doesn't bother people like Vinzent or Trobisch at all. Against better knowledge. They simply continue to spin their Markionite yarn. The McGrath's and Casey's among the mythicists ...

I don’t think Trobisch’s position is based on ignorance of what “everyone knows,” or that he is a “storyteller.” Anyhow NT interpretation is not a “science.”

[lclapshaw]

Watch out KK. I'm telling him what you said in Chemnitz tonight

Careful esse, if the only pillow talk I got from someone was "I want you to beat up so and so" I wouldn't last in that relationship.

[Kunigunde Kreuzerin]

Anyhow NT interpretation is not a “science.”

imho there's a distinction between people who care about things and other people who use things for their agenda. In the present case, the thing is the term "evangelion" in Paul. A number of longer books have been written about this in recent years, many ideas have been developed and many points of contention discussed. But not one of these scholars has claimed that Paul's term means a written text. Trobisch is no better than arch-conservative scholars who propagate that Matthew wrote the first gospel in Hebrew shortly after the Ascension and that Paul knew that gospel as a persecutor of first Christians in Judaea. It's the same, albeit on a different side.

[Secret Alias]

Charming man. Amazing dinner.

[lclapshaw]

Thing is though, if Paul is a second century literary creation as has been proposed by many. One that was composed over a long period of time and encompasses multiple stages of XCanity then I would expect that the nature of references to a Gospel by said fictional construct to be somewhat fluid and flexible.