David Trobisch "What if everything was just made up? About literature and the experience of resonance"

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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maryhelena
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Re: David Trobisch "What if everything was just made up? About literature and the experience of resonance"

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Secret Alias wrote: Mon May 08, 2023 7:17 pm He's also a mensch. A genuinely good person with actual expertise with manuscripts. We were THIS close to watching KD play the Thunder just after his trade. Two ships passing in the night. He also saved Quenton Quesnell's papers. Arranged to put them at Smith Library. Has brilliant insight. And he's an African mzungu. Can't beat that.
A mzungu - long time not hearing that Swahili word.....(not aware it is used in the Cameroon though)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mzungu

Also known as muzungu, mlungu, musungu or musongo, mzungu (pronounced [m̩ˈzuŋɡu]) is a Bantu word that means "wanderer" originally pertaining to spirits. The term is currently used in predominantly Swahili speaking nations to refer to white people dating back to 18th century. The noun Mzungu or its variants are used in Kenya, Tanzania, Uganda, Malawi, Rwanda, Burundi, Democratic Republic of the Congo, Comoros, South Africa, Zimbabwe, Mayotte, Zambia and in Northern Madagascar (the word changed to "vozongo" in Malagasy, but locals will still understand the word mzungu) dating back to the 18th century.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Swahili-language

Swahili language, also called kiSwahili, or Kiswahili, Bantu language spoken either as a mother tongue or as a fluent second language on the east coast of Africa in an area extending from Lamu Island, Kenya, in the north to the southern border of Tanzania in the south.


=================================

(I lived 55 years in Africa - 10 of those years in Kenya)
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MrMacSon
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Re: David Trobisch "What if everything was just made up? About literature and the experience of resonance"

Post by MrMacSon »

neilgodfrey wrote: Mon May 08, 2023 7:09 pm
Here is what [Trobisch] wrote about Jesus:

Jesus of Nazareth

The New Testament, as a product of the second century, knows nothing about Jesus from its own experience. Sources that apparently describe historical events independently of the canonical edition, such as the writings of Josephus, were also available to the canonical editors and therefore only describe the state of information of the second century, and cannot be used to verify the historical reliability of the New Testament. A methodically secured tracing of the Christological ideas of the canonical edition, the Marcionite edition, the Apocryphon of John, or the Second Logos of the great Seth to the historical Jesus of Nazareth is hardly possible. Along with the more than fifty other books about Jesus from this time, they reflect Christological ideas of the second century. The information about Jesus and his early followers that shaped the canonical edition and its impact comes from a single literary source: the Marcionite edition.

What if the stories of Jesus and the writings of his early followers in the canonical edition are literary attempts of the second century to tell a specific audience what they wanted to hear? Something that resonated with them? Something that gave them hope for a life that was better than what they experienced here on Earth?

That's pretty much what Bruno Bauer argued. The gospels are products of a community that has matured enough to imagine its own experiences projected into the life and teaching of a single person. Hence the gospels.

Trobisch can get away with saying stuff like that because he's proven himself to be a stable kosher entity. If someone suspected in advance of not believing in the historicity of Jesus tried to say those same words they would be shouted down, cast out and stoned.

My Microsoft Word translation of the highlighted sentence is:


It is hardly possible to trace the Christological ideas of the Canonical Edition, the Marcionite Edition, the Apocryphon of John, or the Second Logos of the Great Seth back to [a] historical Jesus of Nazareth.
.

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MrMacSon
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Re: David Trobisch "What if everything was just made up? About literature and the experience of resonance"

Post by MrMacSon »


Literatur als Kunst
Literature as art
Die Markionitische Ausgabe ist keine anonyme Ausgabe. Da sie neben dem Evan gelium auch zehn Paulusbriefe enthält, wird Paulus als Herausgeber impliziert. Im Galaterbrief und im 1. Korintherbrief nimmt der literarische Paulus Bezug auf das eine Evangelium, das ihm überliefert wurde. Paulus ist nicht Autor des Evange liums, er ist Herausgeber. Wenn man dieses markionitische Evangelium mit den anderen christlichen Publikationen des zweiten Jahrhunderts vergleicht, so liegt der Schluss nahe, dass die Jesus-Geschichten frei erfunden sein könnten. Ihre Relevanz für Leserinnen und Leser des zweiten Jahrhunderts erklären zehn fiktive Briefe eines »kleinen« (»paulus«) Apostels, der, wie die Leserinnen und Leser, Jesus niemals gesehen hat. Die Rahmenhandlung der markionitischen Briefsammlung ist der Streit zwischen Petrus und Paulus, der im einleitenden Galaterbrief erzählt und in den folgenden Briefen nie beigelegt wird. Dieser Konflikt steht narrativ für das Versagen der ersten Nachfolger Jesu, die die zentrale Botschaft des Gottessoh nes nicht verstehen, und verleiht der Überzeugung Ausdruck, dass nicht die Lehre Jesu, sondern die Erfahrung des Geistes Christi Erlösung vom körperlichen Tod und damit ewiges Leben im Geiste verspricht. Das Christentum ist geboren, das Jesustum überwunden.The Markionite edition is not an anonymous edition. Since it contains ten Pauline epistles in addition to the Evangelium, Paul is implied as the editor. In Galatians and 1 Corinthians, the literary Paul refers to the one gospel that was handed down to him. Paul is not the author of the Evangelium, he is the editor. If one compares this Marcionite gospel with the other Christian publications of the second century, it is reasonable to conclude that the Jesus stories could be fictitious. Their relevance for readers of the second century is explained by ten fictitious letters from a "little" ("Paul") apostle who, like the readers, never saw Jesus. The framework plot of the Marcionite collection of letters is the dispute between Peter and Paul, which is told in the introductory letter to the Galatians and is never settled in the following letters. This conflict represents the narrative failure of Jesus' first followers, who do not understand the central message of God's message, and expresses the conviction that it is not the teaching of Jesus, but the experience of the Spirit of Christ that promises salvation from physical death and thus eternal life in the spirit. Christianity is born, ‘Jesusism’ has been overcome.

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Re: David Trobisch "What if everything was just made up? About literature and the experience of resonance"

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... Die Theorie einer Kanonischen Ausgabe interpretiert die handschriftliche Überlieferung des Neuen Testaments und kommt zu dem Schluss, dass sie auf eine einheitliche Ausgabe zurückzuführen ist. Die Theorie der Markionpriorität besagt, dass es sich bei dieser Kanoni schen Ausgabe nicht um die Erstausgabe handelt, sondern um eine revidierte und erweiterte Fassung einer älteren Ausgabe, die bereits den Titel Neues Testament trug, und von den katholischen Gegnern mit der markionitischen Bewegung in Verbindung gebracht wurde. Beide Ansätze sind in Heidelberg in den neunziger Jahren entwickelt worden. ... The theory of a canonical edition interprets the manuscript tradition of the New Testament and concludes that it can be traced back to a unified edition. The theory of Marcion priority states that this canon edition is not the first edition, but a revised and expanded version of an older edition, which already bore the title New Testament, and was associated by Catholic opponents with the Marcionite movement. Both approaches were developed in Heidelberg in the nineties.
Sollte die Kombination dieser Theorien das historische Geschehen angemessen abbilden, dann sind die diversen literarkritischen Analysen, die fast hundert Jahre lang zur Erklärung der wörtlichen Übereinstimmungen innerhalb des Vier-Evangelien Buches herangezogen wurden, nicht notwendig. Die Übereinstimmungen ließen sich auch als Reaktion auf die Markionitische Ausgabe verstehen, die stark interpoliert und um 16 Schriften erweitert wurde. Die Jesustradition, die das Christentum geprägt hat, wäre damit eine fantasievolle Ausschmückung einer älteren Veröffentlichung. If the combination of these theories adequately depicts historical events, then the various literary-critical analyses that have been used for almost a hundred years to explain the literal similarities within the Books of the Four Gospels are not necessary. The agreements could also be understood as a reaction to the Markionite edition, which was heavily interpolated and expanded by 16 scripts. The Jesus tradition, which has shaped Christianity, would thus be an imaginative embellishment of an older publication.
Die Markionitische und Kanonische Ausgabe stellen zwei von vielen Veröffent lichungen dar, die im zweiten Jahrhundert den Christus Mythos wiedergeben. Das gemeinsame Narrativ besagt, dass ein Gottessohn Menschengestalt angenommen hat, um der Menschheit Erkenntnisse zu vermitteln, die ihnen erlauben sollen, die materielle Welt zu überwinden und nach dem körperlichen Tod als immaterieller Geist weiterzuleben, und zwar im Reich der Himmel, aus dem der Gottessohn entsandt wurde. The Marcionite and canonical editions are two of many publications that reproduce the myth of Christ in the second century. The common narrative is that a Son of God took human form in order to impart knowledge to humanity that would allow them to overcome the material world and continue to live as an immaterial spirit after physical death, in the kingdom of heaven from which the Son of God was sent.
Der Zweite Logos des großen Seth (NHC VII,2), beispielsweise, beschreibt das Ge schehen aus der Perspektive Christi, der in erster Person Singular erzählt, wie er den Himmel verließ indem er seine Gestalt änderte, auf Erden einen nichtsah nenden Menschen aus seinem Körper verdrängte, und am Kreuz die Menschheit auslachte, die sich so leicht habe täuschen lassen. Nicht Jesus, sondern ein anderer, hatte Essig und Galle getrunken, Simon hatte das Kreuz getragen, und einem ande ren war die Dornenkrone aufgesetzt worden. Anschließend fährt der Gottessohn hinab in das Reich des Todes und kehrt von dort zurück in den Himmel. The Second Logos of the Great Seth (NHC VII, 2), for example, describes the event from the perspective of Christ, who, in the first person singular, tells how he left heaven by changing his shape, drove an unsighted man out of his body on earth, and laughed at humanity on the cross, which had so easily been deceived. Not Jesus, but someone else, had drunk vinegar and bile, Simon had carried the cross, and another had had the crown of thorns put on him. Then the Son of God descends into the realm of death and returns from there to heaven.
Ein solcher Bericht ist für die Beschreibung des historischen Jesus nicht ver wertbar. Es ist nicht glaubwürdig, dass Jesus Christus selbst seine Geschichte auf zeichnet. Gleichzeitig aber sagt die Erzählung viel über diejenigen aus, die so etwas veröffentlicht und gelesen haben, also über christliche Leserinnen und Leser des zweiten Jahrhunderts, die auch mit der Kanonischen Ausgabe erreicht werden sollten. Viel häufiger wählen Erzähler die Perspektive von Nachfolgern Jesu, deren Augenzeugenberichte den Anschein von Zuverlässigkeit erzeugen, wie etwa Jesu Vertraute Maria Magdalena, sein Zwillingsbruder Thomas, sein älterer Bruder Jakobus, oder die Perspektive der Eltern Maria und Joseph, die die Kindheitser zählungen innerhalb und außerhalb des Kanons prägt. Such an account cannot be used to describe the historical Jesus. It is not credible that Jesus Christ himself records his story. At the same time, however, the narrative says a lot about those who published and read such a thing, i.e. about Christian readers of the second century, who were also to be reached with the canonical edition. Much more often, narrators choose the perspective of followers of Jesus whose eyewitness accounts create the appearance of reliability, such as Jesus' confidante Mary Magdalene, his twin brother Thomas, his older brother James, or the perspective of parents Mary and Joseph, which shapes childhood narratives inside and outside the canon.
Im Apokryphon des Johannes (NHC II,1; III,1; IV,1; BG 8502,2), um ein anderes Beispiel zu nennen, wird durch eine Neuinterpretation der Schöpfungsgeschichte der Ursprung des Bösen erklärt. Die Erzählung, die vom Jünger Johannes aufgeschrieben wird, wird eröffnet mit einer Szene, in der ein Pharisäer Johannes auslacht, weil er selbst nach dem Tod Jesu seinen Glauben an Jesus nicht aufgeben will. In seiner Verzweiflung wendet sich Johannes im Gebet an Christus, der ihm dann erscheint und in erster Person Singular erklärt, wie das Böse in die Welt kam. Moses habe das falsch dargestellt, sagt Christus und korrigiert die Schöpfungsgeschichte aus Genesis. Weisheit wäre ohne den Schöpfer gott, aus sich selbst heraus, schwanger geworden und hätte zwei Söhne geboren. Moses nennt sie Kain und Abel, Christus aber erklärt, dass ihre richtigen Namen Jahweh und Elohim seien. In the Apocryphon of John (NHC II,1; III,1; IV,1; BG 8502,2), to give another example, the origin of evil is explained by a reinterpretation of the story of creation. The story, which is written down by the disciple Johannes, opens with a scene in which a Pharisee laughs at John because he does not want to give up his faith in Jesus even after Jesus' death. In desperation, John turns to Christ in prayer, who then appears to him and explains in first person singular how evil came into the world. Moses misrepresented this, says Christ, correcting the creation story from Genesis. Without the Creator God, Wisdom would have become pregnant on his own and would have given birth to two sons. Moses calls them Cain and Abel, but Christ declares that their real names are Yahweh and Elohim.
Auch die Kanonische Ausgabe scheut sich nicht, in den Reden Jesu des Vier-Evangelien-Buches, in den Visionen der Apostelgeschichte, im Zweiten Korintherbrief und in der Offenbarung des Johannes, die Geschichte mit der Stimme des Gottessohnes zu erzählen. Und eine kritische Auseinandersetzung mit der jüdischen Bibel, wie sie im Apokryphon des Johannes zu finden ist, drückt sich im Titel »Neues Testament – Neuer Bund« aus und zieht sich durch jede Einzelschrift. The canonical edition also does not shy away from telling the story with the voice of the Son of God in Jesus' discourses of the Books of the Four Gospels, in the visions of the Acts of the Apostles, in the Second Letter to Corinthians and in the Revelation of John. And a critical examination of the Jewish Bible, as found in John's Apocryphon, is expressed in the title "New Testament – New Covenant" and runs through every single scripture.

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Re: David Trobisch "What if everything was just made up? About literature and the experience of resonance"

Post by nightshadetwine »

neilgodfrey wrote: Mon May 08, 2023 7:04 pm Here is a translation of what he wrote about Paul's letters in the chapter:


Pauline epistles

Art creates a narrative world in which people play roles on virtual stages, independent of space and time.
"What I could find of the story of the poor [...] I have collected with diligence and present it to you here, knowing that you will thank me for it. You cannot deny your admiration and love for his spirit and character, and your tears for his fate."

"And you, good soul, who feels the urge like him, draw comfort from his suffering, and let this booklet be your friend if you cannot find a closer one because of fate or your own fault."
Goethe includes these lines with the letters of "poor Werther" when he presents them to the public. The letters do not have to be real, and the events do not have to have occurred to become significant to others. These sentences could also be used as an introduction to the Pauline epistles or most books of the second century that deal with Jesus.

Thanks!
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Re: David Trobisch "What if everything was just made up? About literature and the experience of resonance"

Post by Irish1975 »

MrMacSon wrote: Tue May 09, 2023 12:05 am
Literatur als Kunst
Literature as art
Die Markionitische Ausgabe ist keine anonyme Ausgabe. Da sie neben dem Evan gelium auch zehn Paulusbriefe enthält, wird Paulus als Herausgeber impliziert. Im Galaterbrief und im 1. Korintherbrief nimmt der literarische Paulus Bezug auf das eine Evangelium, das ihm überliefert wurde. Paulus ist nicht Autor des Evange liums, er ist Herausgeber. Wenn man dieses markionitische Evangelium mit den anderen christlichen Publikationen des zweiten Jahrhunderts vergleicht, so liegt der Schluss nahe, dass die Jesus-Geschichten frei erfunden sein könnten. Ihre Relevanz für Leserinnen und Leser des zweiten Jahrhunderts erklären zehn fiktive Briefe eines »kleinen« (»paulus«) Apostels, der, wie die Leserinnen und Leser, Jesus niemals gesehen hat. Die Rahmenhandlung der markionitischen Briefsammlung ist der Streit zwischen Petrus und Paulus, der im einleitenden Galaterbrief erzählt und in den folgenden Briefen nie beigelegt wird. Dieser Konflikt steht narrativ für das Versagen der ersten Nachfolger Jesu, die die zentrale Botschaft des Gottessoh nes nicht verstehen, und verleiht der Überzeugung Ausdruck, dass nicht die Lehre Jesu, sondern die Erfahrung des Geistes Christi Erlösung vom körperlichen Tod und damit ewiges Leben im Geiste verspricht. Das Christentum ist geboren, das Jesustum überwunden.The Markionite edition is not an anonymous edition. Since it contains ten Pauline epistles in addition to the Evangelium, Paul is implied as the editor. In Galatians and 1 Corinthians, the literary Paul refers to the one gospel that was handed down to him. Paul is not the author of the Evangelium, he is the editor. If one compares this Marcionite gospel with the other Christian publications of the second century, it is reasonable to conclude that the Jesus stories could be fictitious. Their relevance for readers of the second century is explained by ten fictitious letters from a "little" ("Paul") apostle who, like the readers, never saw Jesus. The framework plot of the Marcionite collection of letters is the dispute between Peter and Paul, which is told in the introductory letter to the Galatians and is never settled in the following letters. This conflict represents the narrative failure of Jesus' first followers, who do not understand the central message of God's message, and expresses the conviction that it is not the teaching of Jesus, but the experience of the Spirit of Christ that promises salvation from physical death and thus eternal life in the spirit. Christianity is born, ‘Jesusism’ has been overcome.

As always, Mac, I appreciate the careful citation
The Markionite edition is not an anonymous edition.
I read this and thought he was going to say that the name “Marcion” itself is the non-anonymous factor. Why is the classical Greek tradition so sure that “Homer” wrote the Iliad and the Odyssey? There is never any uncertainty, at least in Irenaeus and Tertullian, that Marcion’s name attached to these scriptures. His name reverberates in the titles of so many lost 2nd century treatises. But it need not have been used within the text, as “Paul” is.
Since it contains ten Pauline epistles in addition to the Evangelium, Paul is implied as the editor.
It’s a reasonable hypothesis, but the only one? One thing I have not found in the witnesses (but please show me if I’m wrong) is any specific indication that there really was such a “canon” of Marcion. A ten-letter collection, certainly. But that it was packaged with the one Gospel, all at once and forever?
I never tire of complaining that the canon concept is ridiculously overplayed—and I learned that from Trobisch himself. The NT scholarship world is desperate to sustain the empty notion of a non-political, pre-Constantine concept of “the canon of the New Testament,” as though such a thing were inevitable even without the monotheistic imperialism that came later. As I recall, the translator of the Panarion Frank Williams inserts the word “canon” over and over into Epiphanius’ text, whereas both the word and the concept are missing in the original (at least in certain parts.)

Can we rule out that there were two separate books? We have the two separate titles, Evangelion and Apostolikon. How common would it be in the 2nd century book market to combine two separately titled parts into a “single” work?
In Galatians and 1 Corinthians, the literary Paul refers to the one gospel that was handed down to him.
I don’t understand the leap from the “literary” Paul, the narrative personality of the epistles, to the concept of Paul as “editor.”
Paul is not the author of the Evangelium, he is the editor.
If the Pauline corpus was the work of someone who took the LXX prophets as a model, as per Tarazi or Brodie for example, then it would be hasty to impose a Greco-Roman distinction of author vs editor. That would be terribly un-Hebrew.

The oracular concept of prophecy permeates the Pauline Corpus. Paul speaks as the flawed human Paul, but also “as Christ” and “in the spirit”; or rather, as the human Paul who can remind his flock that at various times he “went outside of himself” (2 Cor). If the hypothetical pristine ancient reader imagined that Paul had written down the Evangelium (“received”), wouldn’t it simply be Christ who was speaking through him? There is no human narrator of the Evangelion, which at least three of the canonical evangelists understood to be an error to be corrected. The author of Mark, for example, does not consistently pretend to be an omniscient narrator, with his asides “let the reader understand,” and the reference to Alexander and Rufus, and maybe too the comedic bit about the scantily clad boy who flees Gethsemene. But I don’t recall any such authorial voice in the Marcionite Gospel (such as we have it). Luke needs to assert himself in his prologue, since the Marcionite bulk of his plagiarized Gospel has no authorial personality. Maybe only Matthew of the canonicals has no human narrative voice, but there is at least the self-allusive verse about the diligent resourceful scribe.
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Irish1975
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Re: David Trobisch "What if everything was just made up? About literature and the experience of resonance"

Post by Irish1975 »

neilgodfrey wrote: Mon May 08, 2023 7:04 pm Here is a translation of what he wrote about Paul's letters in the chapter:


Pauline epistles

Art creates a narrative world in which people play roles on virtual stages, independent of space and time.
"What I could find of the story of the poor [...] I have collected with diligence and present it to you here, knowing that you will thank me for it. You cannot deny your admiration and love for his spirit and character, and your tears for his fate."

"And you, good soul, who feels the urge like him, draw comfort from his suffering, and let this booklet be your friend if you cannot find a closer one because of fate or your own fault."
Goethe includes these lines with the letters of "poor Werther" when he presents them to the public. The letters do not have to be real, and the events do not have to have occurred to become significant to others. These sentences could also be used as an introduction to the Pauline epistles or most books of the second century that deal with Jesus.

I guess the concept of art has to be introduced as a foreign concept to Trobisch’s readership. Is this because we live in a post-Gutenberg era of total media, or because evangelicals grew up on Veggie Tales and Billy Graham and Armageddon, and slept through English class? I don’t think it’s for lack of education that someone like Ehrman has no concept of art. It’s just our American disease. Trobisch has a foot in both American culture and elite German literary culture, so he sees the need to spell things out for us.
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Re: David Trobisch "What if everything was just made up? About literature and the experience of resonance"

Post by MrMacSon »

Irish1975 wrote: Sat May 13, 2023 6:46 am
David Trobisch wrote:
Since [the Marcionite 'edition'] contains ten Pauline epistles in addition to the Evangelium, Paul is implied as the editor. In Galatians and 1 Corinthians, the literary Paul refers to the one gospel that was handed down to him. Paul is not the author of the Evangelium, he is the editor.

I don’t understand the leap from the “literary” Paul, the narrative personality of the epistles, to the concept of Paul as “editor.”
I wasn't sure about the concept of Paul as "editor" of the Marcionite 'edition'/corpus, but I guess Trobisch is proposing that Paul's reference to a gospel in Galatians and 1 Corinthians was a reference to 'the Marcionite Evangelion' AND that Paul was a 2nd-century Marcionite ...
  • (Paul's reference to a gospel in Galatians and 1 Corinthians could represent references to other early 'Christian' texts, such as the Epistle to the Hebrews, Revelation, an early, genuine version of the Didache or the Diatessaron, or the like, but that would require them to be accepted as such )
... which also suggests the disputes mentioned in Paul (and G.Mark)—between Paul and Peter-and-James (and perhaps John)—represent disputes between Marcionites and others over doctrine. Which would also place Paul, James and John (and others) in the 2nd century CE.

Certainly there are indications that John the author of G.John (or perhaps the three Johannine epistles) was a 2nd century author (Papias, etc).
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Re: David Trobisch "What if everything was just made up? About literature and the experience of resonance"

Post by Giuseppe »

Richard Carrier has asked me a copy of the article. He would like to check directly if really prof Trobisch can be classified among the Jesus Agnostics.
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