David Trobisch "What if everything was just made up? About literature and the experience of resonance"

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Ulan
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Re: David Trobisch "What if everything was just made up? About literature and the experience of resonance"

Post by Ulan »

Yes, that's why I called it a "working" model. It was just a suggestion. He made it clear though that, even if we roll with Markan priority for a moment, he thought that gMark worked from some existing precursor, whether written or oral, and not from scratch, because gMark shows signs of editing and editing fatigue. He mentioned that somewhere in this post. There's more in that thread somewhere.
Steven Avery
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Re: David Trobisch "What if everything was just made up? About literature and the experience of resonance"

Post by Steven Avery »

Ulan wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 1:08 pm I don't have a link to his whole model at the moment, but his discussion of the Bethsaida section and its implications for gMark is here:
viewtopic.php?t=2554

BCHF
Presumptions of reader knowledge in Mark
Ben C. Smith - Feb, 2020
http://earlywritings.com/forum/viewtopi ... edc9bb6d2c
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Peter Kirby
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Re: David Trobisch "What if everything was just made up? About literature and the experience of resonance"

Post by Peter Kirby »

Steven Avery wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 3:33 pm
Ulan wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 1:08 pm I don't have a link to his whole model at the moment, but his discussion of the Bethsaida section and its implications for gMark is here:
viewtopic.php?t=2554

BCHF
Presumptions of reader knowledge in Mark
Ben C. Smith - Feb, 2020
http://earlywritings.com/forum/viewtopi ... edc9bb6d2c
Thanks! The helpful link. Cheers.
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Peter Kirby
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Re: David Trobisch "What if everything was just made up? About literature and the experience of resonance"

Post by Peter Kirby »

Peter Kirby wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 10:28 am
Steven Avery wrote: Sat May 20, 2023 3:14 am Ben Smith neatly showed that Mark is dependent on Luke.
Link?
Ben C. Smith wrote: Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:09 pm 1. The imprisonment of John.

2. Simon Peter.

3. The son of man.

4. The disciples of John.

5. The betrayal by Judas.

6. Pilate.

7. Alexander and Rufus.

8. The second Mary.
Ben C. Smith wrote: Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:09 pmTo summarize, I think that the author of the gospel of Mark was writing for readers who already knew at least certain parts of the story. One part of the story involves John the baptist, since readers are expected to know both that he was imprisoned and that he had disciples. Another part of the story involves the crucifixion of Jesus, since readers are expected to know who Pilate is, that Jesus was betrayed, who Alexander and Rufus are, and at least something about the women at the cross. There may be other presumed parts of the story that I have not sussed out yet. The title "son of man" may not be a story element at all, but rather an element of early Christian theology. And knowledge of Simon Peter may or may not include stories about him; he may simply have been known as a famous Christian apostle.

This analysis says nothing about whether what Mark's first readers knew came from historical facts, from legendary tales, or from previous gospel texts. Any or all of those options are left wide open, much in the same way that there are many different ways in which Josephus' readers might have come to learn about the Temple.
Ben Smith left the inference completely wide open here, with several options:

(a) historical facts
(b) legendary tales
(c) previous gospel texts

Also, even if there were previous gospel texts, Ben never suggested they were Matthew, Luke, or John.

Basically, the only point of view disturbed by these observations is that of Mark as a literary creation de novo.
Giuseppe
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Re: David Trobisch "What if everything was just made up? About literature and the experience of resonance"

Post by Giuseppe »

Richard Carrier has just told me that he has added Trobisch in the list of the Jesus Agnostics. The motivation:


Trobisch contributed “Was, wenn alles nur erfunden wäre? Über Literatur und Resonanzerfahrung” (“What If It Was All Made Up? On Literature and Reader-Response”) in which he posits the possibility that Jesus was a fiction invented for literary and religious purposes, comparing him to Harry Potter and Sherlock Holmes. He does not outright say there was no Jesus; but he clearly considers that plausible.

(my bold)

Such is the huge power of an Earliest Gospel starting with the descent of a god already adult at Capernaum.
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