"the God and Christ" instead of "the Son of God" in Marcion's text of Gal 2:20

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
gryan
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Re: "the God and Christ" instead of "the Son of God" in Marcion's text of Gal 2:20

Post by gryan »

Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote: Sat May 20, 2023 4:10 am btw Greg, do you know of a scholarly book that compares the text variants of Paul's "original" letters and draws conclusions as to whether the letters initially circulated separately or as a collection?

Have a nice weekend :cheers:
Question: By the way, do you know of any scholarly books that compare the text variants of Paul's "original" letters and draw conclusions about whether the letters initially circulated separately or as a collection?

Answer: No, Kunigunde, I am not aware of any scholarly book that specifically compares the text variants of Paul's "original" letters and draws conclusions about their initial circulation as separate entities or as a collection. While there is the notable book by Carlson that focuses on the text and history of Galatians, I am not aware of similar works of that caliber for other Pauline books considered authentic. It is worth noting, however, that Galatians itself was part of a collection of letters that included Hebrews, as evidenced by the p46 manuscript dated around 200 CE. Interestingly, the author of Hebrews appears to be well-acquainted with a wide range of Pauline letters and even references 1 Peter.

I appreciate our back and forth conversation, Kunigunde! Thank you, and I hope you have a fantastic weekend too. As for my plans, I'm excited to indulge in some leisurely walks and bask in the rejuvenating spring air. It's the perfect chance to immerse myself in nature, unwind, and recharge.
Kunigunde Kreuzerin
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Re: "the God and Christ" instead of "the Son of God" in Marcion's text of Gal 2:20

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

gryan wrote: Sat May 20, 2023 5:11 am I appreciate our back and forth conversation, Kunigunde! Thank you, and I hope you have a fantastic weekend too. As for my plans, I'm excited to indulge in some leisurely walks and bask in the rejuvenating spring air. It's the perfect chance to immerse myself in nature, unwind, and recharge.
Back from an 8k run :whistling: I have a nice run here through a park, fields and three villages. I hope you had a relaxing walk. I also find that our discussions are really nice and fruitful and I'll take a closer look at Carlson's book.

Just as a side note: I don't know if anyone has already pointed this out, but it seems pretty obvious to me that Mark created GMark 8:34f out of Galatians 2:19f, regardless of which text variant one prefers

Galatians 2:19f Mark 8:34f
For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God. I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God ... If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake and the gospel’s will save it.

StephenGoranson
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Re: "the God and Christ" instead of "the Son of God" in Marcion's text of Gal 2:20

Post by StephenGoranson »

Either of those two texts (Galatians 2:19f and Mark 8:34f) could have been earlier, with or without intertextuality.
Kunigunde Kreuzerin
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Re: "the God and Christ" instead of "the Son of God" in Marcion's text of Gal 2:20

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

StephenGoranson wrote: Sat May 20, 2023 10:33 am Either of those two texts (Galatians 2:19f and Mark 8:34f) could have been earlier, with or without intertextuality.
You are of course absolutely right. For me, however, it wasn't about priority, it was about beauty. It was only intended as a note for those who share the view of Mark's dependence on Paul.
lsayre
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Re: "the God and Christ" instead of "the Son of God" in Marcion's text of Gal 2:20

Post by lsayre »

Mark 8:34 (to me) seems not related to Galatians 2:19 at all.

It wouldn't surprise me if the actual verse 8:34 could be traced back to it's living and breathing source it was likely spoken more along lines like this:
If anyone would come after me, let him denounce the occupation and take up his sword and follow me. For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for the sake of my kingship will save it (I.E., 'will save the Davidic line of kingship').
gryan
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Re: "the God and Christ" instead of "the Son of God" in Marcion's text of Gal 2:20

Post by gryan »

lsayre wrote: Sat May 20, 2023 4:13 pm Mark 8:34 (to me) seems not related to Galatians 2:19 at all.

It wouldn't surprise me if the actual verse 8:34 could be traced back to it's living and breathing source it was likely spoken more along lines like this:
If anyone would come after me, let him denounce the occupation and take up his sword and follow me. For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for the sake of my kingship will save it (I.E., 'will save the Davidic line of kingship').
Yes, one wonders. In support of this view:

Lk 22:35-7
Then Jesus asked them, “When I sent you out without purse or bag or sandals, did you lack anything?” “Nothing,” they answered. 36“Now, however,” He told them, “the one with a purse should take it, and likewise a bag; and the one without a sword should sell his cloak and buy one. 37For I tell you that this Scripture must be fulfilled in Me: ‘And He was numbered with the transgressors.’ For what is written about Me is reaching its fulfillment.”…
gryan
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Re: "the God and Christ" instead of "the Son of God" in Marcion's text of Gal 2:20

Post by gryan »

Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote: Sat May 20, 2023 11:39 am
StephenGoranson wrote: Sat May 20, 2023 10:33 am Either of those two texts (Galatians 2:19f and Mark 8:34f) could have been earlier, with or without intertextuality.
You are of course absolutely right. For me, however, it wasn't about priority, it was about beauty. It was only intended as a note for those who share the view of Mark's dependence on Paul.
I'm pondering this conversation about priority.

The participatory "cross" (σταυρός) in Galatians, Hebrews and Mark

Gal 2:19-20,
"the God and Christ" text [vs standard "Son of God"] text.


For through [the] Law I died to [the] Law so that I might live to God.
19ἐγὼ γὰρ διὰ νόμου νόμῳ ἀπέθανον ἵνα Θεῷ ζήσω
20I have been co-crucified in Christ,
and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me.
The [life] I live in [the] flesh, in [the] faith/faithfulness I live--
that of the God and Christ [the Son of God],
who loved me
and gave Himself up for me.
20Χριστῷ συνεσταύρωμαι
ζῶ δὲ οὐκέτι ἐγώ ζῇ δὲ ἐν ἐμοὶ Χριστός
ὃ δὲ νῦν ζῶ ἐν σαρκί ἐν πίστει ζῶ
τῇ τοῦ θεοῦ καὶ Χριστοῦ [τοῦ Υἱοῦ τοῦ Θεοῦ]
τοῦ ἀγαπήσαντός με
καὶ παραδόντος ἑαυτὸν ὑπὲρ ἐμοῦ

Heb 11:1-12:4

Now faith is [the] assurance of what [we] hope for [and the] certainty of what we do not see.
1Ἔστιν δὲ πίστις ἐλπιζομένων ὑπόστασις πραγμάτων ἔλεγχος οὐ βλεπομένων
2This is why the ancients were commended.
2ἐν ταύτῃ γὰρ ἐμαρτυρήθησαν οἱ πρεσβύτεροι
3By faith we understand that the universe was formed by God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.
3Πίστει νοοῦμεν κατηρτίσθαι τοὺς αἰῶνας ῥήματι Θεοῦ εἰς τὸ μὴ ἐκ φαινομένων τὸ βλεπόμενον γεγονέναι
4By faith Abel offered God a better sacrifice than Cain [did]. By [faith] he was commended as righteous [when] God gave approval to his gifts. And by [faith] he still speaks, [even though] he is dead.
4Πίστει πλείονα θυσίαν Ἅβελ παρὰ Κάϊν προσήνεγκεν τῷ Θεῷ δι’ ἧς ἐμαρτυρήθη εἶναι δίκαιος μαρτυροῦντος ἐπὶ τοῖς δώροις αὐτοῦ τοῦ Θεοῦ καὶ δι’ αὐτῆς ἀποθανὼν ἔτι λαλεῖ
5By faith Enoch was taken up [so that] he did not see death. He could not be found, because God had taken him away. For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God.
5Πίστει Ἑνὼχ μετετέθη τοῦ μὴ ἰδεῖν θάνατον καὶ οὐχ ηὑρίσκετο διότι μετέθηκεν αὐτὸν ὁ Θεός πρὸ γὰρ τῆς μεταθέσεως μεμαρτύρηται εὐαρεστηκέναι τῷ Θεῷ
6And without faith [it is] impossible to please [God], because anyone who approaches [Him] must believe that He exists and [that] He rewards those who earnestly seek Him.
6χωρὶς δὲ πίστεως ἀδύνατον εὐαρεστῆσαι πιστεῦσαι γὰρ δεῖ τὸν προσερχόμενον τῷ Θεῷ ὅτι ἔστιν καὶ τοῖς ἐκζητοῦσιν αὐτὸν μισθαποδότης γίνεται
7By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in godly fear built an ark to save his family. By [faith] he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness [that] comes by faith.
7Πίστει χρηματισθεὶς Νῶε περὶ τῶν μηδέπω βλεπομένων εὐλαβηθεὶς κατεσκεύασεν κιβωτὸν εἰς σωτηρίαν τοῦ οἴκου αὐτοῦ δι’ ἧς κατέκρινεν τὸν κόσμον καὶ τῆς κατὰ πίστιν δικαιοσύνης ἐγένετο κληρονόμος
8By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as [his] inheritance, obeyed and went, without knowing where he was going.
8Πίστει καλούμενος Ἀβραὰμ ὑπήκουσεν ἐξελθεῖν εἰς τόπον ὃν ἤμελλεν λαμβάνειν εἰς κληρονομίαν καὶ ἐξῆλθεν μὴ ἐπιστάμενος ποῦ ἔρχεται
9By faith he dwelt in the promised land as {a stranger} in a foreign [country]. He lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who [were] heirs with him of the same promise.
9Πίστει παρῴκησεν εἰς γῆν τῆς ἐπαγγελίας ὡς ἀλλοτρίαν ἐν σκηναῖς κατοικήσας μετὰ Ἰσαὰκ καὶ Ἰακὼβ τῶν συνκληρονόμων τῆς ἐπαγγελίας τῆς αὐτῆς
10For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder [is] God.
10ἐξεδέχετο γὰρ τὴν τοὺς θεμελίους ἔχουσαν πόλιν ἧς τεχνίτης καὶ δημιουργὸς ὁ Θεός
11By faith Sarah, even though she was barren and beyond the opportune age, was enabled to conceive a child, because she considered Him faithful who had promised.
11Πίστει καὶ αὐτῇ Σάρρᾳ [στεῖρα] δύναμιν εἰς καταβολὴν σπέρματος ἔλαβεν καὶ παρὰ καιρὸν ἡλικίας ἐπεὶ πιστὸν ἡγήσατο τὸν ἐπαγγειλάμενον
12And so from one man, and he as good as dead, came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore.
12διὸ καὶ ἀφ’ ἑνὸς ἐγεννήθησαν καὶ ταῦτα νενεκρωμένου καθὼς τὰ ἄστρα τοῦ οὐρανοῦ τῷ πλήθει καὶ ὡς ἡ ἄμμος ἡ παρὰ τὸ χεῖλος τῆς θαλάσσης ἡ ἀναρίθμητος
13All these [people] died in faith, without having received the things they were promised. However, they saw [them] and welcomed them from afar.
And they acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth.
13Κατὰ πίστιν ἀπέθανον οὗτοι πάντες μὴ κομισάμενοι τὰς ἐπαγγελίας ἀλλὰ πόρρωθεν αὐτὰς ἰδόντες καὶ ἀσπασάμενοι
καὶ ὁμολογήσαντες ὅτι ξένοι καὶ παρεπίδημοί εἰσιν ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς
Cf. ξένοι καὶ πάροικοι, Eph 2:9
Cf. παροίκους καὶ παρεπιδήμους, 1 Peter 2:11
14Now those who say such things show that they are seeking a country of their own.
14οἱ γὰρ τοιαῦτα λέγοντες ἐμφανίζουσιν ὅτι πατρίδα ἐπιζητοῦσιν
15If they had been thinking of [the country] they had left, they would have had opportunity to return.
15καὶ εἰ μὲν ἐκείνης ἐμνημόνευον ἀφ’ ἧς ἐξέβησαν εἶχον ἂν καιρὸν ἀνακάμψαι
16Instead, they were longing for a better [country], a heavenly [one]. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.
16νῦν δὲ κρείττονος ὀρέγονται τοῦτ’ ἔστιν ἐπουρανίου διὸ οὐκ ἐπαισχύνεται αὐτοὺς ὁ Θεὸς Θεὸς ἐπικαλεῖσθαι αὐτῶν ἡτοίμασεν γὰρ αὐτοῖς πόλιν
17By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac [ on the altar ]. He who had received the promises was ready to offer [his] one and only son,
17Πίστει προσενήνοχεν Ἀβραὰμ τὸν Ἰσαὰκ πειραζόμενος καὶ τὸν μονογενῆ προσέφερεν ὁ τὰς ἐπαγγελίας ἀναδεξάμενος
18even though [God] had said to him, “Through Isaac your offspring will be reckoned.” 18πρὸς ὃν ἐλαλήθη ὅτι Ἐν Ἰσαὰκ κληθήσεταί σοι σπέρμα
19[Abraham] reasoned that God could raise [the] dead, [and] in a sense, he did receive [Isaac] back from [death].
19λογισάμενος ὅτι καὶ ἐκ νεκρῶν ἐγείρειν δυνατὸς ὁ Θεός ὅθεν αὐτὸν καὶ ἐν παραβολῇ ἐκομίσατο
20By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning the future.
20Πίστει καὶ περὶ μελλόντων εὐλόγησεν Ἰσαὰκ τὸν Ἰακὼβ καὶ τὸν Ἠσαῦ
21By faith Jacob, when he was dying, blessed each of Joseph’s sons and worshiped [as he leaned] on the top of his staff.
21Πίστει Ἰακὼβ ἀποθνῄσκων ἕκαστον τῶν υἱῶν Ἰωσὴφ εὐλόγησεν καὶ προσεκύνησεν ἐπὶ τὸ ἄκρον τῆς ῥάβδου αὐτοῦ
22By faith Joseph, when his end was near, spoke about the exodus of the Israelites and gave instructions about his bones.
22Πίστει Ἰωσὴφ τελευτῶν περὶ τῆς ἐξόδου τῶν υἱῶν Ἰσραὴλ ἐμνημόνευσεν καὶ περὶ τῶν ὀστέων αὐτοῦ ἐνετείλατο
23By faith [Moses’] parents hid him for three months after his birth, because they saw [he was] a beautiful child, and they were unafraid of the king’s edict.
23Πίστει Μωϋσῆς γεννηθεὶς ἐκρύβη τρίμηνον ὑπὸ τῶν πατέρων αὐτοῦ διότι εἶδον ἀστεῖον τὸ παιδίον καὶ οὐκ ἐφοβήθησαν τὸ διάταγμα τοῦ βασιλέως
24By faith Moses, when he was grown, refused to be called [the] son of Pharaoh’s daughter.
24Πίστει Μωϋσῆς μέγας γενόμενος ἠρνήσατο λέγεσθαι υἱὸς θυγατρὸς Φαραώ
25He chose to suffer oppression with God’s people rather than to experience [the] fleeting enjoyment of sin.
25μᾶλλον ἑλόμενος συνκακουχεῖσθαι τῷ λαῷ τοῦ Θεοῦ ἢ πρόσκαιρον ἔχειν ἁμαρτίας ἀπόλαυσιν
26He valued disgrace for Christ {above} the treasures of Egypt, for he was looking ahead to [his] reward.
26μείζονα πλοῦτον ἡγησάμενος τῶν Αἰγύπτου θησαυρῶν τὸν ὀνειδισμὸν τοῦ Χριστοῦ ἀπέβλεπεν γὰρ εἰς τὴν μισθαποδοσίαν
27By faith [Moses] left Egypt, not fearing the king’s anger; he persevered because he saw [Him who is] invisible.
27Πίστει κατέλιπεν Αἴγυπτον μὴ φοβηθεὶς τὸν θυμὸν τοῦ βασιλέως τὸν γὰρ ἀόρατον ὡς ὁρῶν ἐκαρτέρησεν
28By faith he kept the Passover and the sprinkling of blood, so that the destroyer [of] the firstborn would not touch [Israel’s own] [ firstborn ].
28Πίστει πεποίηκεν τὸ πάσχα καὶ τὴν πρόσχυσιν τοῦ αἵματος ἵνα μὴ ὁ ὀλοθρεύων τὰ πρωτότοκα θίγῃ αὐτῶν
29By faith [the people] passed through the Red Sea as on dry land; [but when] the Egyptians tried [to follow], they were drowned. 29Πίστει διέβησαν τὴν Ἐρυθρὰν Θάλασσαν ὡς διὰ ξηρᾶς γῆς ἧς πεῖραν λαβόντες οἱ Αἰγύπτιοι κατεπόθησαν
30By faith the walls of Jericho fell, after [the people] had marched around them for seven days.
30Πίστει τὰ τείχη Ἰεριχὼ ἔπεσαν κυκλωθέντα ἐπὶ ἑπτὰ ἡμέρας
31By faith the prostitute Rahab, because she welcomed the spies in peace, did not perish with those who were disobedient.
31Πίστει Ῥαὰβ ἡ πόρνη οὐ συναπώλετο τοῖς ἀπειθήσασιν δεξαμένη τοὺς κατασκόπους μετ’ εἰρήνης
32And what more shall I say? Time will not allow me to tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, David, Samuel, and the prophets, 32Καὶ τί ἔτι λέγω ἐπιλείψει με γὰρ διηγούμενον ὁ χρόνος περὶ Γεδεών Βαράκ Σαμψών Ἰεφθάε Δαυίδ τε καὶ Σαμουὴλ καὶ τῶν προφητῶν
33who through faith conquered kingdoms, administered justice, [and] obtained what was promised; [who] shut [the] mouths of lions, 33οἳ διὰ πίστεως κατηγωνίσαντο βασιλείας εἰργάσαντο* δικαιοσύνην ἐπέτυχον ἐπαγγελιῶν ἔφραξαν στόματα λεόντων
34quenched [the] raging fire, [and] escaped [the] edge of [the] sword; [who] gained strength from weakness, became mighty in battle, [and] put foreign armies [to flight].
34ἔσβεσαν δύναμιν πυρός ἔφυγον στόματα μαχαίρης ἐδυναμώθησαν ἀπὸ ἀσθενείας ἐγενήθησαν ἰσχυροὶ ἐν πολέμῳ παρεμβολὰς ἔκλιναν ἀλλοτρίων
35Women received back their dead, raised to life again. Others were tortured [and] refused [their] release, so that they might gain a better resurrection. 35Ἔλαβον γυναῖκες ἐξ ἀναστάσεως τοὺς νεκροὺς αὐτῶν ἄλλοι δὲ ἐτυμπανίσθησαν οὐ προσδεξάμενοι τὴν ἀπολύτρωσιν ἵνα κρείττονος ἀναστάσεως τύχωσιν
36[Still] others endured mocking and flogging, and even chains and imprisonment.
36ἕτεροι δὲ ἐμπαιγμῶν καὶ μαστίγων πεῖραν ἔλαβον ἔτι δὲ δεσμῶν καὶ φυλακῆς
37They were stoned, they were sawed in two, they were put to death by [the] sword. They went around in sheepskins [and] goatskins, destitute, oppressed, [and] mistreated.
37Ἐλιθάσθησαν 〈ἐπειράσθησαν〉 ἐπρίσθησαν ἐν φόνῳ μαχαίρης ἀπέθανον περιῆλθον ἐν μηλωταῖς ἐν αἰγείοις δέρμασιν ὑστερούμενοι θλιβόμενοι κακουχούμενοι
38The world was not worthy of [them]. They wandered in deserts and mountains, and [ hid in ] caves and holes in the ground.
38ὧν οὐκ ἦν ἄξιος ὁ κόσμος ἐπὶ ἐρημίαις πλανώμενοι καὶ ὄρεσιν καὶ σπηλαίοις καὶ ταῖς ὀπαῖς τῆς γῆς
39These {were} all commended for [their] faith, [yet] they did not receive what [was] promised.
39Καὶ οὗτοι πάντες μαρτυρηθέντες διὰ τῆς πίστεως οὐκ ἐκομίσαντο τὴν ἐπαγγελίαν
40God had planned something better for us, so that together with us they would be made perfect.
40τοῦ Θεοῦ περὶ ἡμῶν κρεῖττόν τι προβλεψαμένου ἵνα μὴ χωρὶς ἡμῶν τελειωθῶσιν
1Therefore, [since] we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off every encumbrance and the sin [that] so easily entangles, [and] let us run with endurance the race set out for us.
1Τοιγαροῦν καὶ ἡμεῖς τοσοῦτον ἔχοντες περικείμενον ἡμῖν νέφος μαρτύρων ὄγκον ἀποθέμενοι πάντα καὶ τὴν εὐπερίστατον ἁμαρτίαν δι’ ὑπομονῆς τρέχωμεν τὸν προκείμενον ἡμῖν ἀγῶνα
2Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of [our] faith,
who for the joy set before Him endured [the] cross, scorning [its] shame, and sat down at [the] right hand of the throne of God.
2ἀφορῶντες εἰς τὸν τῆς πίστεως ἀρχηγὸν καὶ τελειωτὴν Ἰησοῦν
ὃς ἀντὶ τῆς προκειμένης αὐτῷ χαρᾶς ὑπέμεινεν σταυρὸν αἰσχύνης καταφρονήσας ἐν δεξιᾷ τε τοῦ θρόνου τοῦ Θεοῦ κεκάθικεν
3Consider Him who endured such hostility from sinners, so that you will not grow weary [and] lose heart.
3ἀναλογίσασθε γὰρ τὸν τοιαύτην ὑπομεμενηκότα ὑπὸ τῶν ἁμαρτωλῶν εἰς ἑαυτὸν ἀντιλογίαν ἵνα μὴ κάμητε ταῖς ψυχαῖς ὑμῶν ἐκλυόμενοι
4In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood.
4Οὔπω μέχρις αἵματος ἀντικατέστητε πρὸς τὴν ἁμαρτίαν ἀνταγωνιζόμενοι

Mark 8:34-35

Then [Jesus] called the crowd {to Him} along with His disciples, [and] He told them,
“If anyone wants to come after Me, he must deny himself
and take up his cross and follow Me.
34Καὶ προσκαλεσάμενος τὸν ὄχλον σὺν τοῖς μαθηταῖς αὐτοῦ εἶπεν αὐτοῖς
Εἴ τις θέλει ὀπίσω μου ἐλθεῖν ἀπαρνησάσθω ἑαυτὸν
καὶ ἀράτω τὸν σταυρὸν αὐτοῦ καὶ ἀκολουθείτω μοι
35For whoever wants to save his life will lose it,
but whoever loses his life for My sake
and for the gospel will save it.
35ὃς γὰρ ἐὰν θέλῃ τὴν ψυχὴν αὐτοῦ σῶσαι ἀπολέσει αὐτήν
ὃς δ’ ἂν ἀπολέσει τὴν ψυχὴν αὐτοῦ ἕνεκεν ἐμοῦ
καὶ τοῦ εὐαγγελίου σώσει αὐτήν
gryan
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Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2018 4:11 am

Re: "the God and Christ" instead of "the Son of God" in Marcion's text of Gal 2:20

Post by gryan »

MrMacSon wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 5:38 pm One presumes you're referring to

The Text of Galatians and Its History
by Stephen C. Carlson · 2015 · Mohr Siebeck

Stephen C. Carlson investigates the text of Paul's Epistle to the Galatians and analyses how that text changed over the course of its transmission in manuscript copies over several centuries. For this study, he collated ninety-two textual witnesses of Galatians and arranged them into a genealogical family tree called a stemma codicum, with assistance from a computer-implemented method used in computational biology known as cladistics. Using this global stemma, he establishes a critical text for the epistle and assesses the nature of the textual variations that occurred throughout the text's history of transmission in over 250 significant variant readings, paying particular attention to possible theological motivations. This is the first study to produce a global stemma of any kind for a New Testament book, an accomplishment that was previously thought to be unfeasible.

https://www.google.com.au/books/edition ... 3YUC?hl=en


Based on the author's doctoral dissertation. This volume investigates the text of Paul's Epistle to the Galatians and its history, how it changed over time. This work performs a stemmatic analysis of 92 witnesses to the text of Galatians, using cladistic methods developed by computational biologists, to construct an unoriented stemma of the textual tradition. The stemma is then oriented based on the internal evidence of textual variants

https://archive.org/details/textofgalatiansi0000carl

Yes, this is an amazing scholarly accomplishment. I don't claim to understand how he did it, but his reasoning strikes me as a kind of scientific prose poetry--very condensed, very well considered. I think all his choices against Nestle Aland were correct. Carlson was a computer scientist and a lawyer and a published author before he became a PhD student at Duke.

I disagree with some of his grammatical decisions, however. He thinks "the God and Christ" refers to two persons. I think it refers to a single person called ""God and Christ [Anointed One] who, according to Paul, "loved me and gave himself for me." This is not because I know Greek better. This is because I think the author of Hebrews was grappling with Paul's claim when he quoted this psalm to describe Jesus:

8But about the Son [He says]: “Your throne, O God, [endures] forever and ever, and justice [is] the scepter of Your kingdom.
8Πρὸς δὲ τὸν Υἱόν Ὁ θρόνος σου ὁ Θεὸς εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα τοῦ αἰῶνος καὶ ἡ ῥάβδος τῆς εὐθύτητος ῥάβδος τῆς βασιλείας σου*
9You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, Your God, { has placed } You above Your companions by anointing [ You ] with [the] oil of joy.”
9ἠγάπησας δικαιοσύνην καὶ ἐμίσησας ἀνομίαν διὰ τοῦτο ἔχρισέν σε ὁ Θεός ὁ Θεός σου ἔλαιον ἀγαλλιάσεως παρὰ τοὺς μετόχους σου

So in Gal 2:20 Paul may have called Jesus "God and anointed one" in the sense of the Hebrew King in this psalm; in any case, the author of Hebrews thought so.
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MrMacSon
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Re: "the God and Christ" instead of "the Son of God" in Marcion's text of Gal 2:20

Post by MrMacSon »

gryan wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 9:24 am
Yes, this is an amazing scholarly accomplishment. I don't claim to understand how he did it, but his reasoning strikes me as a kind of scientific prose poetry--very condensed, very well considered. I think all his choices against Nestle Aland were correct. Carlson was a computer scientist and a lawyer and a published author before he became a PhD student at Duke.

I disagree with some of his grammatical decisions, however. He thinks "the God and Christ" refers to two persons. I think it refers to a single person called "God and Christ [Anointed One]" who, according to Paul, "loved me and gave himself for me." This is not because I know Greek better. This is because I think the author of Hebrews was grappling with Paul's claim when he quoted this Psalm [45:6-7] to describe Jesus [in Hebrews 1:8-9]:

8 But about the Son [He says]: “Your throne, O God, [endures] forever and ever, and justice [is] the scepter of Your kingdom.
8 Πρὸς δὲ τὸν Υἱόν Ὁ θρόνος σου ὁ Θεὸς εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα τοῦ αἰῶνος καὶ ἡ ῥάβδος τῆς εὐθύτητος ῥάβδος τῆς βασιλείας σου*

9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, Your God, { has placed } You above Your companions by anointing [ You ] with [the] oil of joy.”
9 ἠγάπησας δικαιοσύνην καὶ ἐμίσησας ἀνομίαν διὰ τοῦτο ἔχρισέν σε ὁ Θεός ὁ Θεός σου ἔλαιον ἀγαλλιάσεως παρὰ τοὺς μετόχους σου

So, in Gal 2:20 Paul may have called Jesus "God and anointed one" in the sense of the Hebrew King in this Psalm; in any case, the author of Hebrews thought so.

  • Cheers. Interesting.
    (though it would seem possible Paul used Hebrews or the issue was a [slightly] wider one at the time they were writing (?))
gryan
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Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2018 4:11 am

Re: "the God and Christ" instead of "the Son of God" in Marcion's text of Gal 2:20

Post by gryan »

MrMacSon wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 5:21 pm
gryan wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 9:24 am
Yes, this is an amazing scholarly accomplishment. I don't claim to understand how he did it, but his reasoning strikes me as a kind of scientific prose poetry--very condensed, very well considered. I think all his choices against Nestle Aland were correct. Carlson was a computer scientist and a lawyer and a published author before he became a PhD student at Duke.

I disagree with some of his grammatical decisions, however. He thinks "the God and Christ" refers to two persons. I think it refers to a single person called "God and Christ [Anointed One]" who, according to Paul, "loved me and gave himself for me." This is not because I know Greek better. This is because I think the author of Hebrews was grappling with Paul's claim when he quoted this Psalm [45:6-7] to describe Jesus [in Hebrews 1:8-9]:

8 But about the Son [He says]: “Your throne, O God, [endures] forever and ever, and justice [is] the scepter of Your kingdom.
8 Πρὸς δὲ τὸν Υἱόν Ὁ θρόνος σου ὁ Θεὸς εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα τοῦ αἰῶνος καὶ ἡ ῥάβδος τῆς εὐθύτητος ῥάβδος τῆς βασιλείας σου*

9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, Your God, { has placed } You above Your companions by anointing [ You ] with [the] oil of joy.”
9 ἠγάπησας δικαιοσύνην καὶ ἐμίσησας ἀνομίαν διὰ τοῦτο ἔχρισέν σε ὁ Θεός ὁ Θεός σου ἔλαιον ἀγαλλιάσεως παρὰ τοὺς μετόχους σου

So, in Gal 2:20 Paul may have called Jesus "God and anointed one" in the sense of the Hebrew King in this Psalm; in any case, the author of Hebrews thought so.

  • Cheers. Interesting.
    (though it would seem possible Paul used Hebrews or the issue was a [slightly] wider one at the time they were writing (?))
Thanks!

I hope my research will show that it makes best sense to assume that the author of Hebrews read Galatians and was interpreting Galatians for a later and different audience.

It is interesting that the author of Hebrews treats the Psalm quoted in Heb 1:8-9 as if the words of the Psalm were spoken by God to his Son. This is treating words of the OT as words of God. I think he similarly reads Galatians as coming from God. This receptivity fits the introduction (NA text except where noted):

1Paul, an apostle— [sent] not from men nor by man,
but by Jesus Christ
and God [the] Father,
who raised Him from [the] dead—
1Παῦλος ἀπόστολος οὐκ ἀπ’ ἀνθρώπων οὐδὲ δι’ ἀνθρώπου
ἀλλὰ διὰ Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ
καὶ Θεοῦ Πατρὸς τοῦ ἐγείραντος αὐτὸν ἐκ νεκρῶν
2and all the brothers with me,
To the churches of Galatia:
2καὶ οἱ σὺν ἐμοὶ πάντες ἀδελφοί
Ταῖς ἐκκλησίαις τῆς Γαλατίας
3Grace to you
and peace
from God the Father
and our Lord Jesus Christ
,
3 χάρις ὑμῖν
καὶ εἰρήνη
ἀπὸ θεοῦ πατρὸς
καὶ κυρίου ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ
(Carlson's Critical Text, "our Lord" instead of NA "God our father and the Lord..." puts more emphasis on the word "Lord", anticipating the next usage of the word Lord in canonical Galatians: "James the Lord's brother")
4who gave Himself for our sins
to rescue us from the present evil age,
according to the will of our God and Father,
4τοῦ δόντος ἑαυτὸν ὑπὲρ τῶν ἁμαρτιῶν ἡμῶν
ὅπως ἐξέληται ἡμᾶς ἐκ τοῦ αἰῶνος τοῦ ἐνεστῶτος πονηροῦ
κατὰ τὸ θέλημα τοῦ Θεοῦ καὶ Πατρὸς ἡμῶν
5to whom [be] glory forever [and] ever. Amen.
5ᾧ ἡ δόξα εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων ἀμήν
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