Klinghardt and the Question about Fasting

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Kunigunde Kreuzerin
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Klinghardt and the Question about Fasting

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

Irish1975 wrote: Sat May 20, 2023 7:55 amDo people ignore Klinghardt because his 2 volumes are too expensive, or because his argumentation is too technical and dense (true enough), or because they think they understand him and judge that his case is weak, or has been refuted (by someone) already?
Is Klinghardt a scholar whose arguments are worth studying? Or is Klinghardt just a storyteller like Vinzent and Trobisch?

Giuseppe found Klinghardt's argument on the question about fasting to be a "persuasive point". In this thread, I will examine the question in detail because Ken's response was so gentle, but I'm not.

In order to present the problem in greater depth, I will begin with a synopsis of the synoptic gospels. I use the text of NA28 and a word by word translation (in brackets are necessary English filler words).

Luke 5:33 Mark 2:18 Matthew 9:14
Οἱ δὲ εἶπαν πρὸς αὐτόν·οἱ μαθηταὶ Ἰωάννου νηστεύουσιν πυκνὰ καὶ δεήσεις ποιοῦνται ὁμοίως καὶ οἱ τῶν Φαρισαίων, οἱ δὲ σοὶ ἐσθίουσιν καὶ πίνουσιν καὶ ἔρχονται καὶ λέγουσιν αὐτῷ·διὰ τί οἱ μαθηταὶ Ἰωάννου καὶ οἱ μαθηταὶ τῶν Φαρισαίων νηστεύουσιν, οἱ δὲ σοὶ μαθηταὶ οὐ νηστεύουσιν Τότε προσέρχονται αὐτῷ οἱ μαθηταὶ Ἰωάννου λέγοντες·διὰ τί ἡμεῖς καὶ οἱ Φαρισαῖοι νηστεύομεν [πολλά], οἱ δὲ μαθηταί σου οὐ νηστεύουσιν
They however said to him: The disciples (of) John fast often and prayer (they) make, likewise also they (of) the Pharisees, they however, yours, eat and drink. and (they) come and say him: Because (of) what the disciples (of) John and the disciples (of) the Pharisees fast, they however, your disciples not fast? Then come-to him the disciples (of) John, saying: Because (of) what we and the Pharisees fast [much], they however, disciples (of) you not fast?

There are some striking differences between Luke on the one hand and Mark and Matthew on the other hand

- Mark and Matthew initially used the historical present (come and say, come-to, saying) and a form of the word "come", Luke used the aorist (they said)
- in Mark and Matthew a question is asked, in Luke a statement is made
- in Mark and Matthew the first two groups are connected by the word "and", in Luke by the word "likewise"
- in Mark and Matthew it is said that the disciples of Jesus "do not fast", but in Luke they "eat"
- in Mark and Matthew both the mention of the prayers and the drinking of the disciples are missing

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Re: Klinghardt and the Question about Fasting

Post by Secret Alias »

Storyteller. People like you can't follow critical arguments. Is the cavonical set "four witnesses" or one? Mark, Matthew, Luke and John are not 4 separate witnesses to Jesus. You are just too stupid to get past this basic fact. Sorry a gospel in four does not count for 4 separate witnesses. Once you find intelligence we can have a proper discussion.
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Re: Klinghardt and the Question about Fasting

Post by Secret Alias »

"Everyone says you are great" "everyone says you suck" is just one witness. You can't multiply "you suck" by "everyone" and assume that it is universally true. Marcion's gospel gets one vote. The gospel in four is just another vote. Only someone with rocks in his head treats Mark, Matthew, Luke and John as four witnesses against Marcion when they are bundled together as a single gospel.
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Re: Klinghardt and the Question about Fasting

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

Secret Alias wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 11:25 am Storyteller. People like you can't follow critical arguments. Is the cavonical set "four witnesses" or one? Mark, Matthew, Luke and John are not 4 separate witnesses to Jesus. You are just too stupid to get past this basic fact. Sorry a gospel in four does not count for 4 separate witnesses. Once you find intelligence we can have a proper discussion.
Stephan, my friend, I'm slightly concerned that this thread could end very badly for Klinghardt. You mustn't scold me right at the beginning, you have to save something until the very end.
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Re: Klinghardt and the Question about Fasting

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No. It is naivete to treat Mark, Matthew, Luke and John as separate witnesses. They together are one witness.
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Re: Klinghardt and the Question about Fasting

Post by Secret Alias »

The brilliance of Trobisch is that he recognized that the New Testament canon is one witness. That it is meant to read together.
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Irish1975
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Re: Klinghardt and the Question about Fasting

Post by Irish1975 »

Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 11:11 am
Irish1975 wrote: Sat May 20, 2023 7:55 amDo people ignore Klinghardt because his 2 volumes are too expensive, or because his argumentation is too technical and dense (true enough), or because they think they understand him and judge that his case is weak, or has been refuted (by someone) already?
Is Klinghardt a scholar whose arguments are worth studying? Or is Klinghardt just a storyteller like Vinzent and Trobisch?
But what do you think about their moms?
Giuseppe found Klinghardt's argument on the question about fasting to be a "persuasive point". In this thread, I will examine the question in detail because Ken's response was so gentle, but I'm not.

In order to present the problem in greater depth, I will begin with a synopsis of the synoptic gospels. I use the text of NA28 and a word by word translation (in brackets are necessary English filler words).

Luke 5:33 Mark 2:18 Matthew 9:14
Οἱ δὲ εἶπαν πρὸς αὐτόν·οἱ μαθηταὶ Ἰωάννου νηστεύουσιν πυκνὰ καὶ δεήσεις ποιοῦνται ὁμοίως καὶ οἱ τῶν Φαρισαίων, οἱ δὲ σοὶ ἐσθίουσιν καὶ πίνουσιν καὶ ἔρχονται καὶ λέγουσιν αὐτῷ·διὰ τί οἱ μαθηταὶ Ἰωάννου καὶ οἱ μαθηταὶ τῶν Φαρισαίων νηστεύουσιν, οἱ δὲ σοὶ μαθηταὶ οὐ νηστεύουσιν Τότε προσέρχονται αὐτῷ οἱ μαθηταὶ Ἰωάννου λέγοντες·διὰ τί ἡμεῖς καὶ οἱ Φαρισαῖοι νηστεύομεν [πολλά], οἱ δὲ μαθηταί σου οὐ νηστεύουσιν
They however said to him: The disciples (of) John fast often and prayer (they) make, likewise also they (of) the Pharisees, they however, yours, eat and drink. and (they) come and say him: Because (of) what the disciples (of) John and the disciples (of) the Pharisees fast, they however, your disciples not fast? Then come-to him the disciples (of) John, saying: Because (of) what we and the Pharisees fast [much], they however, disciples (of) you not fast?

There are some striking differences between Luke on the one hand and Mark and Matthew on the other hand

- Mark and Matthew initially used the historical present (come and say, come-to, saying) and a form of the word "come", Luke used the aorist (they said)
- in Mark and Matthew a question is asked, in Luke a statement is made
- in Mark and Matthew the first two groups are connected by the word "and", in Luke by the word "likewise"
- in Mark and Matthew it is said that the disciples of Jesus "do not fast", but in Luke they "eat"
- in Mark and Matthew both the mention of the prayers and the drinking of the disciples are missing

What is the problem you were going to present?
Last edited by Irish1975 on Sun May 21, 2023 8:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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GMark's Simon Didn't Saaay

Post by JoeWallack »

Giuseppe wrote: Sat May 20, 2023 8:50 pm Ken, this is another persuasive point:

Mark 2:18:
Now John’s disciples and the Pharisees were fasting. And they came and asked Jesus, “How is it that John’s disciples and the disciples of the Pharisees are fasting, but yours are not?”

*Ev 5:33:
And they said to him, "Why the disciples of John and the disciples of the Pharisees fast steadily and carry out prayers, but yours eat and drink?"

The Klinghardt's comment:
The introduction in Mark creates a mismatch: the Pharisees and John's disciples who came to Jesus address him in the third person about their own fasting practices.

(ibid., p. 561)

It would be very strange, indeed, that someone asks about himself in the third person. It is as if I ask: is Giuseppe right in writing this post?

The Klinghardt's conclusion (same page):
The question in the third person is thus a characteristic of the pre-Markan text in *Ev.

JW:
RT France in the classic The Gospel of Mark points out that the "they" are not explicitly identified so the context indicates
that the "they", those asking the question, are not the third party referred to in the question. France is something of an apologist
though. The lack of identification of "they" here is bad grammar by general standards. For "Mark" though this is something he does
a few other times (I have faith that KK can provide examples on (polite) demand). His Greek Tragedy genre uses "they" like
"the chorus". There is also a lot of textual variation here (2:18) evidencing that whatever was originally written was an issue to
subsequent Christianity. Rather than recreate KK's related research I think i'll just catch the last 10 minutes of Dynasty.

Regarding Klinghoffer having a persuasive point here it looks like the type of point someone would make who lacked any
persuasive points.


Joseph

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Peter Kirby
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Re: Klinghardt and the Question about Fasting

Post by Peter Kirby »

Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 11:11 am In order to present the problem in greater depth, I will begin with a synopsis of the synoptic gospels. I use the text of NA28 and a word by word translation (in brackets are necessary English filler words).

Luke 5:33 Mark 2:18 Matthew 9:14
Οἱ δὲ εἶπαν πρὸς αὐτόν·οἱ μαθηταὶ Ἰωάννου νηστεύουσιν πυκνὰ καὶ δεήσεις ποιοῦνται ὁμοίως καὶ οἱ τῶν Φαρισαίων, οἱ δὲ σοὶ ἐσθίουσιν καὶ πίνουσιν καὶ ἔρχονται καὶ λέγουσιν αὐτῷ·διὰ τί οἱ μαθηταὶ Ἰωάννου καὶ οἱ μαθηταὶ τῶν Φαρισαίων νηστεύουσιν, οἱ δὲ σοὶ μαθηταὶ οὐ νηστεύουσιν Τότε προσέρχονται αὐτῷ οἱ μαθηταὶ Ἰωάννου λέγοντες·διὰ τί ἡμεῖς καὶ οἱ Φαρισαῖοι νηστεύομεν [πολλά], οἱ δὲ μαθηταί σου οὐ νηστεύουσιν
They however said to him: The disciples (of) John fast often and prayer (they) make, likewise also they (of) the Pharisees, they however, yours, eat and drink. and (they) come and say him: Because (of) what the disciples (of) John and the disciples (of) the Pharisees fast, they however, your disciples not fast? Then come-to him the disciples (of) John, saying: Because (of) what we and the Pharisees fast [much], they however, disciples (of) you not fast?

There are some striking differences between Luke on the one hand and Mark and Matthew on the other hand

- Mark and Matthew initially used the historical present (come and say, come-to, saying) and a form of the word "come", Luke used the aorist (they said)
- in Mark and Matthew a question is asked, in Luke a statement is made
- in Mark and Matthew the first two groups are connected by the word "and", in Luke by the word "likewise"
- in Mark and Matthew it is said that the disciples of Jesus "do not fast", but in Luke they "eat"
- in Mark and Matthew both the mention of the prayers and the drinking of the disciples are missing

I appreciate you starting this thread because discussions of details are always useful.

What are you emphasizing here? What is the point that you're making based on the synopsis?
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Re: Klinghardt and the Question about Fasting

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

Peter Kirby wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 8:08 pmI appreciate you starting this thread because discussions of details are always useful.

What are you emphasizing here? What is the point that you're making based on the synopsis?
Thank you Peter

The synopsis serves only as a warm-up and to get in touch with the actually existing texts in detail. I put Luke's text first because Klinghardt also thinks that it is Marcion's twin. Before I ask which Marcionite version one can reconstruct, one can check the probability of Marcion's twin (Luke) as Mark's source. I have pointed out differences to give you a sense of what editing work Mark would have had to do if Luke was his source. As I shall show, Matthew is essential to understand how Klinghardt arrived at his interpretation of Mark.
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