Data Science and the Gospels

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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MrMacSon
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Re: Data Science and the Gospels

Post by MrMacSon »

gryan wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 12:40 pm
vocesanticae wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 12:07 pm My English translation is of Vinzent's forthcoming edition, not based on my textual reconstruction. I looked into it a bit, and noticed that the variant is not attested by Tertullian or Adamantius Dialogue. I'll copy and paste the relevant sentence from Vinzent's footnote justifying this particular portion of the reconstruction:

"Für die monarchianische Lesart τοῦ θεοῦ καὶ Χριστοῦ sprechen, trotz des Zeugnisses des Adamantius, die Zeugen P46, 03, 06*, 010, 012, (b), MVict."
Re: Vinzent's monarchian interpretation of the phrase "τοῦ θεοῦ καὶ Χριστοῦ"

Could you please say a bit about "monarchian" views associated with Marcion? (I am unfamiliar with this word.)
From Wikipedia:
“Monarchianism...emphasises God as one indivisible being, in direct contrast to Trinitarianism”

From E Britannica:
“Monarchianism...[is] a Christological position that opposed the doctrine of an independent, personal ‘subsistence* of the Logos’ and affirmed the sole deity of God the Father. Thus, it represented the extreme monotheistic view.”

eta:
*The use of ‘subsistence’ is interesting given its apparent ambiguity:
See https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/subsistence
vocesanticae
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Re: Data Science and the Gospels

Post by vocesanticae »

Thank you to MrMacSon for the clarifying references.

Both the Apostolos and Evangelion tend toward this simpler monotheism, in contrast with some of the proto-trinitarian tendencies seen in the canonical redactions. For further background on Vinzent's views, I'd suggest his chapter on "Marcion the Jew", https://doi.org/10.1484/J.JAAJ.1.103527
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DCHindley
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Re: Data Science and the Gospels

Post by DCHindley »

Irish1975 wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 3:37 pm
Peter Kirby wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 2:51 pm
Irish1975 wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 9:43 am Now why can’t the scholarly world produce a readable bilingual anthology of all the Marcionite source material? People will always want to read and judge for themselves.
Ben Smith's threads here have been enduringly useful:

The Marcionite epistles with accompanying sources
viewtopic.php?t=1837

The Marcionite gospel with accompanying sources
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1765
They are useful. But I was thinking of something that isn’t a reconstruction at all, rather a source book for the whole “Marcionite” tradition, warts and all. There are plenty of sources that Roth or BeDuhn or whoever haven’t worked into their reconstructions.

Also, I am not quite confident in Ben’s version. For example, isn’t the following a (not insignificant) mistranslation of Tertullian’s version of Romans 10:3?

...

BeDuhn translates it correctly, but either Ben or Roth fudges it. The parentheses remind me of those footnotes in the NRSV that tell the reader what is actually in the Greek although they bowderlize the main text.
I have restated the data you had earlier presented as I am unsure what is being asserted about translations being incorrect. It looks as though Ben's "translation" is that by S Thelwell in the Ante-Nicene Christian Library.

There was a lot to compare. I tried to reproduce the original post’s formatting to retain its emphasis. The tables cover Tertullian in three columns, Latin from the post, then the translation from the post, [ viewtopic.php?p=40597#p40597 ] and a google translation of the Latin.

For Romans 10:1-21, the columns include the Greek, a second has the translation with commentary, and the third has the RSV. I added a bit of color analysis to allow contrasts.

Tertullian only loosely cites Romans 10:2, leaving only a few key words, but the logic can be reconstructed by reference to the original Greek.
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Irish1975
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Re: Data Science and the Gospels

Post by Irish1975 »

DCH—

Not knowing God (deum ignorantes) and not knowing the rigtheousness of God (dei iustitiam ignorantes) are two different things. This is one of many instances where the plagiarizers of the Marcionite original altered or interpolated words so as to moderate the Pauline split from the religion of Moses. Ben’s reconstruction of the Greek simply retains the language of canonical Romans, ignoring Tertullian.
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DCHindley
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Re: Data Science and the Gospels

Post by DCHindley »

Not exactly sure I understand what Tertullian was trying to say by "Salio et hic amplissimum abruptum intercisae scripturae," immediately succeeded by the passage in question. Thelwell translated it as "I have here a very wide gulf of expunged Scripture to leap across." while Google translate rendered this as "I jump here and here the most extensive abruptness of the interspersed writing." Eh?

I took it to mean Marcion had excluded the whole passage corresponding to 10:2-3, and Tertullian had interpreted this to be Marcion "disrespecting" the creator god worshipped by the Jews. His extreme abbreviation of 10:3 (at least compared to the Vulgate) and using the poetic plural of "divine," was his way of mocking Marcion for introducing multiple divinities, and having set up his straw dog, he knocks it over with laughing derision. What a guy!

Tertullian, Against Marcion 5.14.6 (Latin is from Ben Smith's old Text Excavation site, now closed)
Google Translate (easier to follow than Thelwell's 1860's translation), except for last two paragraphs as I did not find the Latin readily available.
Vulgate (Latin)
Douay-Rheims (Eng Trans of Latin)
Greek (GNT from BW8)
RSV (non-controversial English translation) with my usual interpolations bracketed, but feel free to ignore the brackets.
sed apprehendo testimonium perhibentem apostolum Israeli, (Rom 10:1-4) but I take hold of the testimony of the apostle of Israel, (Rom 10:1-4) Rom. 10:1 fratres voluntas quidem cordis mei et obsecratio ad Deum fit pro illis in salutem Rom. 10:1 Brethren, the will of my heart, indeed and my prayer to God is for them unto salvation. Rom. 10:1 Ἀδελφοί, ἡ μὲν εὐδοκία τῆς ἐμῆς καρδίας καὶ ἡ δέησις πρὸς τὸν Θεὸν ὑπὲρ αὐτῶν εἰς σωτηρίαν. Rom. 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for *them* is that they may be saved.
(Rom 10:2) quod zelum dei habeant, that they have the zeal of God (BeDuhn - For I bear Israel witness that they have a zeal for God) 10:2a testimonium enim perhibeo illis quod aemulationem Dei habent 2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal of God, 2 μαρτυρῶ γὰρ αὐτοῖς ὅτι ζῆλον Θεοῦ ἔχουσιν, 10:2 [I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God,
sui utique, of course
non tamen per scientiam. not, however, by knowledge. (BeDuhn - but not according to experience) 10:2b sed non secundum scientiam but not according to knowledge. ἀλλ’ οὐ κατ’ ἐπίγνωσιν· but it is not enlightened.]
(Rom. 10:3) Deum* enim, [*Deum = accusative singular of deus (god, divine); OR (poetic) genitive plural of deus (god, divine)] “For God,” 10:3a ignorantes enim Dei* iustitiam [*Dei = genitive of deus (god, divine)] 3 For they, not knowing the justice of God 3 ἀγνοοῦντες γὰρ τὴν τοῦ Θεοῦ δικαιοσύνην, 10:3a For, being ignorant of the righteousness that comes from God,
Inquit, he says,
ignorantes, “ignorant” (BeDuhn - Since, ignorant of God)
et suam iustitiam sistere quaerentes, and seeking to establish their own justice (BeDuhn - and seeking to establish (their) own rectitude) et suam quaerentes statuere and seeking to establish their own, καὶ τὴν ἰδίαν ζητοῦντες στῆσαι, 10:3b and seeking to establish their own,
non subiecerunt se iustitiae dei; they did not submit themselves to the justice of God; (BeDuhn - they did not subject themselves to the rectitude of God) iustitiae Dei non sunt subiecti have not submitted themselves to the justice of God. τῇ δικαιοσύνῃ τοῦ Θεοῦ οὐχ ὑπετάγησαν. 10:3c they did not submit to God's righteousness.
(Rom. 10:4) finis etenim legis Christus in iustitia omni credenti. for the end of the law is Christ in righteousness to every believer. (BeDuhn - For Christos is an end of law for rectification for everyone who trusts. ...) 4 finis enim legis Christus ad iustitiam omni credenti 4 For the end of the law is Christ: unto justice to everyone that believeth. 4 τέλος γὰρ νόμου Χριστὸς εἰς δικαιοσύνην παντὶ τῷ πιστεύοντι. 10:4 [For Christ is the end of the law, that every one who has faith may be justified.]
Hereupon we shall be confronted with an argument of the heretic, that the Jews were ignorant of the superior God,
since, in opposition to him, they set up their own righteousness — that is, the righteousness of their law — not receiving Christ, the end (or finisher) of the law.

Edit: For the heck of it, here is what Epiphanius has to say:

Epiphanius, Panarion (Frank Williams' English Translation)
Epiphanius, Panarion (Greek from Ruslan Khazarzar website)
According to the Marcionites, what follows (is sect) "42" Κατὰ Μαρκιωνιστῶν <κβ>, τῆς δὲ ἀκολουθίας <μβ>
From the Letter to the Romans, fourth in his list, but first among Paul's letters. Τῆς πρὸς Ῥωμαίους, παρ' αὐτῷ ˉδ, ἐν δὲ τῷ ἀποστολικῷ
vii. (xxxiv) [10:4] "For the end of the law is Christ for the justice of everyone who believes." 42.11.8..ˉζ [10:4] ˉλˉδ. «Τέλος γὰρ νόμου Χριστὸς εἰς δικαιοσύνην παντὶ τῷ πιστεύοντι».

Vs 2 & 3 are not mentioned. Vs 4 is. There is a lack of any citations from Rom 8:4 to 10:3 in Epiphanius' section 42, on Marcionites. The next citation is way down the pike at 13:8. Nothing after that.
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