Data Science and the Gospels

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
vocesanticae
Posts: 115
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2020 3:10 pm

Re: Data Science and the Gospels

Post by vocesanticae »

Peter Kirby wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 8:40 pm
vocesanticae wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 5:15 pmComparing it with Vinzent's edition reinforces for me how much this new Greek edition of the Apostolos is going to be a game-changer
Referring to this, I suppose: http://markusvinzent.blogspot.com/2022/ ... cions.html
Yes, that's a good preview of several of his forthcoming publications. My current understanding is that his concordance/index of vocabulary in the Marcionite and canonical scriptures will be published soonest, perhaps as early as June or July, by Narr Francke Attempto Verlag. That will provide the broader environmental linguistic context for the restoration/reconstruction decisions seen in his Apostolos reconstruction that will be forthcoming in December or so.
gryan
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Re: Data Science and the Gospels

Post by gryan »

vocesanticae wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 8:12 am I ran a quick search of the lemmatized and morphologically tagged version of Vinzent's Greek Apostolos that I've compiled and which he and I will be co-publishing.

I see the bigram πίστις@[^ ]+ Χριστός in Gal 2.16 and Phil 3.9 in both the Apostolos and the canonical Paul.

Are there other instances to which you would point me?

Here's what I've written in the draft introduction of the English translation:

"For the root πιστ- / pist-, which could be rendered as “believ-/belief”, “trust/entrust”, and “faith/fidelity”, and related negative forms, the second and third stems are adopted as defaults. This reinforces for readers that the earliest Jesus movement—embedded in Judean and Greco-Roman contexts—did not share their progeny’s later obsession over doctrinal theology (i.e., belief as content and/or intellectual assent), but focused instead on community identity, ritual, and ethics (i.e., faith as covenant participation and practice)."

Whether the genitive is subjective or objective is unclear, but I also think it doesn't really matter, because either way it fits within the later frame, not the former.
Thanks.

Re: "...either way it fits within the later frame, not the former."

By "the later frame" are you saying that πίστις Χριστοῦ phrases (used in the 33%/counted as Paul's authentic words) fit "their progeny’s later obsession over doctrinal theology (i.e., belief as content and/or intellectual assent)"?



Here are eight occurrences of the phrase in Paul’s “genuine” epistles:

διὰ πίστεως Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ (“through faith[/fulness] in [/of] Jesus Christ”; Rom 3.22);

ἐκ πίστεως Ἰησοῦ (“by faith[/fulness] in [/of] Jesus”; Rom 3.26);

διὰ πίστεως Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ (“through faith[/fulness] in [/of] Jesus Christ”; Gal 2.16a);

ἐκ πίστεως Χριστοῦ (“by faith[/fulness] in [/of] Jesus”; Gal 2.16b);

ἐν πίστει … τοῦ υἱοῦ τοῦ θεοῦ (“by faith[/fulness] in [/of] the Son of God”; Gal 2.20);

ἐκ πίστεως Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ (“by faith[/fulness] in [/of] Jesus Christ”; Gal 3.22);

διὰ τῆς πίστεως Χριστοῦ Ἰησοῦ (“through faith[/fulness] in [/of] Christ Jesus”; Gal 3.26, only in manuscript P46);

διὰ πίστεως Χριστοῦ (“through faith[/fulness] in [/of] Christ”; Phil 3.9).
also: Eph 3.12; 4.13
lclapshaw
Posts: 777
Joined: Sun May 16, 2021 10:01 am

Re: Data Science and the Gospels

Post by lclapshaw »

vocesanticae wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 2:41 pm
gryan wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 5:56 am Dear Dr. Bilby,

According to you, 30 percent of the writings attributed to Paul are authentic. Do I understand you correctly? Could you please elaborate on this. Are there specific characteristics of this 30% authentic Paul?
I tend to think the 30% still preserves the ipsissima verba of the historical Paul and (like BeDuhn, see "Myth of Marcion as Redactor", and like Klinghardt also) see Marcion as more a passive compiler rather than a heavy-handed editor, as is also the case with the Evangelion. Vinzent leans more on the side of Marcion taking a much more active role in filtering and re-writing earlier texts from a "stock" of Paul's letters in circulation. It will be interesting to see where the data science leads us.

Vinzent's forthcoming Greek critical reconstruction of the Apostolos (or Apostolikon) with Narr Francke Attempto Verlag is, according to the latest news, slated for December of 2023 or thereabouts. I've now completed a full English translation of that Greek text, side by side with the canonical Paul text. Jack Bull, Vinzent's PhD student, is editing the volume as we speak.

In the meantime, BeDuhn's Apostolikon is the best text available. A close comparison of its features with those of the canonical 10 letters of Paul can and will reveal the divergences.

Here's a list of some of the post prominent that jumped out to me as I translated both texts:
1. minimal concern with fundraising in Apostolos -> enormous concern with fundraising in canonical Paul (esp 2 Cor)
2. minimal self-referential comments in Apostolos -> frequent and repeated quasi-biographical details in canonical Paul, including repeated concerns about Paul imposters and letter authorship authentication
3. minimal colleagues in Apostolos -> a massive entourage of fellow apostles and diplomatic representatives in canonical Paul
4. direct heavenly apostolic authority in Apostolos -> heavenly calling synced up with and aligned with Jerusalem/pillars in canonical Paul
5. minimal travel/itinerary details in Apostolos (and Evangelion) -> extensive travel details that synchronize the text with canonical Acts and the travel obsession in the canonical Luke redaction as well
6. occasional, poignant references to Judean scripture in Apostolos -> extensive LXX scripture catenae in canonical Paul
7. newness and radical character of the "good message" in Apostolos -> retrospective salvation-history perspective in canonical Paul (esp Rom 9-11, almost entirely missing from Apostolos)
8. clear valorization of celibacy -> making celibacy more of an option

There are many more. To me, it's crystal clear that the Apostolos reflects a significantly earlier time in the development of the Jesus movement, and that the canonical portions of Paul missing from Apostolos align significantly with the proto-orthodox program in the Pastorals and Acts.
You might find this thread fun viewtopic.php?f=3&t=10382
lclapshaw
Posts: 777
Joined: Sun May 16, 2021 10:01 am

Re: Data Science and the Gospels

Post by lclapshaw »

Peter Kirby wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 3:11 pm
lclapshaw wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 7:51 am I very much appreciate your science based approach to the material, long overdue imo.

One thing that I would love to see is what a LLM using just ancient Greek words, without words like kai, tu, de, in it's database, and no understanding of Greek grammar, would come up with in the way of breaking up the uncial texts that we have. Do you know if anyone is doing anything like this?
I'm very familiar with machine learning and language models both by profession and by interest.

What exactly do you want to be done? What is interesting about it?
Just want to see what a LLM like Dolly 2.0 will do with the material starting with a minimum of data.
vocesanticae
Posts: 115
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2020 3:10 pm

Re: Data Science and the Gospels

Post by vocesanticae »

gryan wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 9:40 am
vocesanticae wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 8:12 am I ran a quick search of the lemmatized and morphologically tagged version of Vinzent's Greek Apostolos that I've compiled and which he and I will be co-publishing.

I see the bigram πίστις@[^ ]+ Χριστός in Gal 2.16 and Phil 3.9 in both the Apostolos and the canonical Paul.

Are there other instances to which you would point me?

Here's what I've written in the draft introduction of the English translation:

"For the root πιστ- / pist-, which could be rendered as “believ-/belief”, “trust/entrust”, and “faith/fidelity”, and related negative forms, the second and third stems are adopted as defaults. This reinforces for readers that the earliest Jesus movement—embedded in Judean and Greco-Roman contexts—did not share their progeny’s later obsession over doctrinal theology (i.e., belief as content and/or intellectual assent), but focused instead on community identity, ritual, and ethics (i.e., faith as covenant participation and practice)."

Whether the genitive is subjective or objective is unclear, but I also think it doesn't really matter, because either way it fits within the later frame, not the former.
Thanks.

Re: "...either way it fits within the later frame, not the former."

By "the later frame" are you saying that πίστις Χριστοῦ phrases (used in the 33%/counted as Paul's authentic words) fit "their progeny’s later obsession over doctrinal theology (i.e., belief as content and/or intellectual assent)"?



Here are eight occurrences of the phrase in Paul’s “genuine” epistles:

διὰ πίστεως Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ (“through faith[/fulness] in [/of] Jesus Christ”; Rom 3.22);

ἐκ πίστεως Ἰησοῦ (“by faith[/fulness] in [/of] Jesus”; Rom 3.26);

διὰ πίστεως Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ (“through faith[/fulness] in [/of] Jesus Christ”; Gal 2.16a);

ἐκ πίστεως Χριστοῦ (“by faith[/fulness] in [/of] Jesus”; Gal 2.16b);

ἐν πίστει … τοῦ υἱοῦ τοῦ θεοῦ (“by faith[/fulness] in [/of] the Son of God”; Gal 2.20);

ἐκ πίστεως Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ (“by faith[/fulness] in [/of] Jesus Christ”; Gal 3.22);

διὰ τῆς πίστεως Χριστοῦ Ἰησοῦ (“through faith[/fulness] in [/of] Christ Jesus”; Gal 3.26, only in manuscript P46);

διὰ πίστεως Χριστοῦ (“through faith[/fulness] in [/of] Christ”; Phil 3.9).
also: Eph 3.12; 4.13
Thanks. That's a helpful list. Here's what my current English translation of the Apostolos reveals. Yes means the verse is present in Apostolos. The subsequent notes clarify the precise wording as compared to the canonical counterpart.

Rom 3.22 yes, but slightly briefer and missing the word Jesus, thus "through faith of Anointed"
Rom 3.26 no; temple-like atonement theology
Gal 2.16a yes, but "faith" is mentioned w/out reference to Jesus/son
Gal 2.16b yes, identical
Gal 2.20 yes, but genitive is "the god and the Anointed", not the "son of god"
"But what I now live in flesh, I live in faith, in that of the god and of Anointed who ransomed me and who gave himself over for me."
Gal 3.22 missing
Gal 3.26 yes, but "faith" stands alone w/out a modifier: "For you all are sons of the faith."
Phl 3.9 yes, but "and may be found in him, not having my own justice, that from law, but that through him, that from god."

In short, the phrase is clearly present in the Apostolos, but it is repeated far more often as a formula by the canonical redactor, and often theologically heightened in the process. This also makes sense given the liturgical perspective in the canonical version. The Apostolos reads as occasional letters to religious communities. The canonical letters read as documents to be read within liturgies of religious communities. Big difference.

The Apostolos repeatedly pictures salvation as ransoming, akin to a cosmic prisoner exchange. The developed temple-based atonement theology and salvation-historical depictions of the law/torah as paedogogos are both highly characteristic features of the canonical redactor.

Also, about the other point, I see both the Marcionite Apostolos and canonical version using "faith" in terms of "community identity, ritual, and ethics (i.e., faith as covenant participation and practice)", not in terms of assent to a set of doctrines. Even the canonical version is historically prior to the development of anything like a regula fidei.
gryan
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Re: Data Science and the Gospels

Post by gryan »

vocesanticae wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 11:08 am Gal 2.20 yes, but genitive is "the god and the Anointed", not the "son of god"
"But what I now live in flesh, I live in faith, in that of the god and of Anointed who ransomed me and who gave himself over for me."
Wow, I'm pleasantly surprised to see this!

I made the same argument here, in this linked thread (I thought I was alone in my reconstruction):
"the God and Christ" instead of "the Son of God" in Marcion's text of Gal 2:20
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=10781

Could you please explain how "Apostolos" was reconstructed to achieve the same ("the god and the anointed") text in Gal 2:20?

PS. My interpretation of the grammar is different (only one "the"). As I see it, "the god and Anointed one who..." describes one person: Jesus, who is both called "God" and is subordinate to a higher "God" who anointed him (Cf. Heb 1:8-9. I read Hebrews and 1 Peter as early interpretations of Paul's letters, and of Galatians specifically).
Last edited by gryan on Fri May 26, 2023 12:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
vocesanticae
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Re: Data Science and the Gospels

Post by vocesanticae »

My English translation is of Vinzent's forthcoming edition, not based on my textual reconstruction. I looked into it a bit, and noticed that the variant is not attested by Tertullian or Adamantius Dialogue. I'll copy and paste the relevant sentence from Vinzent's footnote justifying this particular portion of the reconstruction:

"Für die monarchianische Lesart τοῦ θεοῦ καὶ Χριστοῦ sprechen, trotz des Zeugnisses des Adamantius, die Zeugen P46, 03, 06*, 010, 012, (b), MVict."
gryan
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Re: Data Science and the Gospels

Post by gryan »

vocesanticae wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 12:07 pm I looked into it a bit, and noticed that the variant is not attested by Tertullian...
Have you considered my argument that it is attested by Tertullian?

The possible evidence is in Tertullian's comments on Gal 2:6:

[6] Si haec quoque intellegi ex hoc postulant, id quoque nemo dubitabit, eius
dei et Christi praedicatorem Paulum cuius legem quamvis excludens, interim tamen pro temporibus admiserat, statim amoliendam si novum deum protulisset.

Tr. Chat Gpt
[6] If these things also demand to be understood from this context,
no one will doubt that Paul, the proclaimer of this God and Christ,
whose law he had temporarily admitted despite excluding it,
would immediately reject it if someone introduced a new god.

The phrase "dei et Christi" is the word-for-word textual variant found in Victorinus' (Western branch) Latin text of Gal 2:20, which can be translated as "But as I now live in the flesh, I live in the faith of God and Christ."

viewtopic.php?p=155122#p155122
vocesanticae
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Re: Data Science and the Gospels

Post by vocesanticae »

That's a great catch. You should email your idea to Vinzent to see if he will consider including that observation in his footnote on the verse.

In my work on the Evangelion, I've noticed that in many places, T mentions a given verse several times, once prior to its running sequence in the commentary, once in its proper, running sequence (which I usually deem its "primary attestation", generally the most reliable), and sometimes subsequent to its running sequence. This doesn't count the various verses that get mentioned in the first three books of Against Marcion, as well as in other treatises.

Given the clear pattern match, as well as Tertullian's citation habits regarding foreshadowing and subsequent restatement, you may well be onto something, even if the phrase occurs in his comments on an earlier verse.
gryan
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Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2018 4:11 am

Re: Data Science and the Gospels

Post by gryan »

vocesanticae wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 12:07 pm My English translation is of Vinzent's forthcoming edition, not based on my textual reconstruction. I looked into it a bit, and noticed that the variant is not attested by Tertullian or Adamantius Dialogue. I'll copy and paste the relevant sentence from Vinzent's footnote justifying this particular portion of the reconstruction:

"Für die monarchianische Lesart τοῦ θεοῦ καὶ Χριστοῦ sprechen, trotz des Zeugnisses des Adamantius, die Zeugen P46, 03, 06*, 010, 012, (b), MVict."
Re: Vinzent's monarchian interpretation of the phrase "τοῦ θεοῦ καὶ Χριστοῦ"

Could you please say a bit about "monarchian" views associated with Marcion? (I am unfamiliar with this word.)
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