Data Science and the Gospels

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
vocesanticae
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Data Science and the Gospels

Post by vocesanticae »

Recently had a dual appearance on the History Valley and MythVision channels. Wondered if this community had any thoughts/responses/questions.

I didn't come up with the video title, by the way. It was supposed to be an episode about academic publishing in the digital age, but the current research on the Marcionite scriptures ended up playing a significant role.

gryan
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Re: Data Science and the Gospels

Post by gryan »

Dear Dr. Bilby,

According to you, 30 percent of the writings attributed to Paul are authentic. Do I understand you correctly? Could you please elaborate on this. Are there specific characteristics of this 30% authentic Paul?
lclapshaw
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Re: Data Science and the Gospels

Post by lclapshaw »

I very much appreciate your science based approach to the material, long overdue imo.

One thing that I would love to see is what a LLM using just ancient Greek words, without words like kai, tu, de, in it's database, and no understanding of Greek grammar, would come up with in the way of breaking up the uncial texts that we have. Do you know if anyone is doing anything like this?
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Irish1975
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Re: Data Science and the Gospels

Post by Irish1975 »

I agree that scholars of biblical and ancient texts need to start using quantitive analysis and computational linguistics. But I am skeptical of a notion of “biblical science.”

Now why can’t the scholarly world produce a readable bilingual anthology of all the Marcionite source material? People will always want to read and judge for themselves.
vocesanticae
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Re: Data Science and the Gospels

Post by vocesanticae »

gryan wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 5:56 am Dear Dr. Bilby,

According to you, 30 percent of the writings attributed to Paul are authentic. Do I understand you correctly? Could you please elaborate on this. Are there specific characteristics of this 30% authentic Paul?
I tend to think the 30% still preserves the ipsissima verba of the historical Paul and (like BeDuhn, see "Myth of Marcion as Redactor", and like Klinghardt also) see Marcion as more a passive compiler rather than a heavy-handed editor, as is also the case with the Evangelion. Vinzent leans more on the side of Marcion taking a much more active role in filtering and re-writing earlier texts from a "stock" of Paul's letters in circulation. It will be interesting to see where the data science leads us.

Vinzent's forthcoming Greek critical reconstruction of the Apostolos (or Apostolikon) with Narr Francke Attempto Verlag is, according to the latest news, slated for December of 2023 or thereabouts. I've now completed a full English translation of that Greek text, side by side with the canonical Paul text. Jack Bull, Vinzent's PhD student, is editing the volume as we speak.

In the meantime, BeDuhn's Apostolikon is the best text available. A close comparison of its features with those of the canonical 10 letters of Paul can and will reveal the divergences.

Here's a list of some of the post prominent that jumped out to me as I translated both texts:
1. minimal concern with fundraising in Apostolos -> enormous concern with fundraising in canonical Paul (esp 2 Cor)
2. minimal self-referential comments in Apostolos -> frequent and repeated quasi-biographical details in canonical Paul, including repeated concerns about Paul imposters and letter authorship authentication
3. minimal colleagues in Apostolos -> a massive entourage of fellow apostles and diplomatic representatives in canonical Paul
4. direct heavenly apostolic authority in Apostolos -> heavenly calling synced up with and aligned with Jerusalem/pillars in canonical Paul
5. minimal travel/itinerary details in Apostolos (and Evangelion) -> extensive travel details that synchronize the text with canonical Acts and the travel obsession in the canonical Luke redaction as well
6. occasional, poignant references to Judean scripture in Apostolos -> extensive LXX scripture catenae in canonical Paul
7. newness and radical character of the "good message" in Apostolos -> retrospective salvation-history perspective in canonical Paul (esp Rom 9-11, almost entirely missing from Apostolos)
8. clear valorization of celibacy -> making celibacy more of an option

There are many more. To me, it's crystal clear that the Apostolos reflects a significantly earlier time in the development of the Jesus movement, and that the canonical portions of Paul missing from Apostolos align significantly with the proto-orthodox program in the Pastorals and Acts.
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Peter Kirby
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Re: Data Science and the Gospels

Post by Peter Kirby »

Irish1975 wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 9:43 am Now why can’t the scholarly world produce a readable bilingual anthology of all the Marcionite source material? People will always want to read and judge for themselves.
Ben Smith's threads here have been enduringly useful:

The Marcionite epistles with accompanying sources
viewtopic.php?t=1837

The Marcionite gospel with accompanying sources
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1765
vocesanticae
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Re: Data Science and the Gospels

Post by vocesanticae »

lclapshaw wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 7:51 am I very much appreciate your science based approach to the material, long overdue imo.

One thing that I would love to see is what a LLM using just ancient Greek words, without words like kai, tu, de, in it's database, and no understanding of Greek grammar, would come up with in the way of breaking up the uncial texts that we have. Do you know if anyone is doing anything like this?
The Diorisis project out of the Turing Institute (under the direction of Barbara McGillivray, the editor-in-chief of the Journal of Open Humanities Data) has a massive curated set of TEI-XML files in which stop words are removed.

Joey McCollum at ACU (formerly Virginia Tech) is doing some cool work on NT manuscript genealogies based on transcriptions. Removing stop words from manuscript transcriptions should be quite feasible.
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Peter Kirby
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Re: Data Science and the Gospels

Post by Peter Kirby »

lclapshaw wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 7:51 am I very much appreciate your science based approach to the material, long overdue imo.

One thing that I would love to see is what a LLM using just ancient Greek words, without words like kai, tu, de, in it's database, and no understanding of Greek grammar, would come up with in the way of breaking up the uncial texts that we have. Do you know if anyone is doing anything like this?
I'm very familiar with machine learning and language models both by profession and by interest.

What exactly do you want to be done? What is interesting about it?
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Irish1975
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Re: Data Science and the Gospels

Post by Irish1975 »

Peter Kirby wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 2:51 pm
Irish1975 wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 9:43 am Now why can’t the scholarly world produce a readable bilingual anthology of all the Marcionite source material? People will always want to read and judge for themselves.
Ben Smith's threads here have been enduringly useful:

The Marcionite epistles with accompanying sources
viewtopic.php?t=1837

The Marcionite gospel with accompanying sources
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1765
They are useful. But I was thinking of something that isn’t a reconstruction at all, rather a source book for the whole “Marcionite” tradition, warts and all. There are plenty of sources that Roth or BeDuhn or whoever haven’t worked into their reconstructions.

Also, I am not quite confident in Ben’s version. For example, isn’t the following a (not insignificant) mistranslation of Tertullian’s version of Romans 10:3?
Ben C. Smith wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2015 11:37 am Romans 10.1-21.

1 Ἀδελφοί, ἡ μὲν εὐδοκία τῆς ἐμῆς καρδίας καὶ ἡ δέησις πρὸς τὸν Θεὸν ὑπὲρ αὐτῶν εἰς σωτηρίαν. 2 μαρτυρῶ γὰρ αὐτοῖς ὅτι ζῆλον Θεοῦ ἔχουσιν, ἀλλ’ οὐ κατ’ ἐπίγνωσιν· 3 ἀγνοοῦντες γὰρ τὴν τοῦ Θεοῦ δικαιοσύνην, καὶ τὴν ἰδίαν ζητοῦντες στῆσαι, τῇ δικαιοσύνῃ τοῦ Θεοῦ οὐχ ὑπετάγησαν. 4 τέλος γὰρ νόμου Χριστὸς εἰς δικαιοσύνην παντὶ τῷ πιστεύοντι. 5 Μωϋσῆς γὰρ γράφει ὅτι τὴν δικαιοσύνην τὴν ἐκ νόμου ὁ ποιήσας ἄνθρωπος ζήσεται ἐν αὐτῇ. 6 ἡ δὲ ἐκ πίστεως δικαιοσύνη οὕτως λέγει Μὴ εἴπῃς ἐν τῇ καρδίᾳ σου Τίς ἀναβήσεται εἰς τὸν οὐρανόν; τοῦτ’ ἔστιν Χριστὸν καταγαγεῖν· 7 ἤ Τίς καταβήσεται εἰς τὴν ἄβυσσον; τοῦτ’ ἔστιν Χριστὸν ἐκ νεκρῶν ἀναγαγεῖν. 8 ἀλλὰ τί λέγει; Ἐγγύς σου τὸ ῥῆμά ἐστιν, ἐν τῷ στόματί σου καὶ ἐν τῇ καρδίᾳ σου· τοῦτ’ ἔστιν τὸ ῥῆμα τῆς πίστεως ὃ κηρύσσομεν. 9 ὅτι ἐὰν ὁμολογήσῃς ἐν τῷ στόματί σου Κύριον Ἰησοῦν, καὶ πιστεύσῃς ἐν τῇ καρδίᾳ σου ὅτι ὁ Θεὸς αὐτὸν ἤγειρεν ἐκ νεκρῶν, σωθήσῃ· 10 καρδίᾳ γὰρ πιστεύεται εἰς δικαιοσύνην, στόματι δὲ ὁμολογεῖται εἰς σωτηρίαν. 11 λέγει γὰρ ἡ γραφή Πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων ἐπ’ αὐτῷ οὐ καταισχυνθήσεται. 12 οὐ γάρ ἐστιν διαστολὴ Ἰουδαίου τε καὶ Ἕλληνος· ὁ γὰρ αὐτὸς Κύριος πάντων, πλουτῶν εἰς πάντας τοὺς ἐπικαλουμένους αὐτόν· 13 Πᾶς γὰρ ὃς ἂν ἐπικαλέσηται τὸ ὄνομα Κυρίου σωθήσεται. 14 πῶς οὖν ἐπικαλέσωνται εἰς ὃν οὐκ ἐπίστευσαν; πῶς δὲ πιστεύσωσιν οὗ οὐκ ἤκουσαν; πῶς δὲ ἀκούσωσιν χωρὶς κηρύσσοντος; 15 πῶς δὲ κηρύξωσιν ἐὰν μὴ ἀποσταλῶσιν; καθάπερ γέγραπται Ὡς ὡραῖοι οἱ πόδες τῶν εὐαγγελιζομένων ἀγαθά. 16 Ἀλλ’ οὐ πάντες ὑπήκουσαν τῷ εὐαγγελίῳ. Ἡσαΐας γὰρ λέγει Κύριε, τίς ἐπίστευσεν τῇ ἀκοῇ ἡμῶν; 17 ἄρα ἡ πίστις ἐξ ἀκοῆς, ἡ δὲ ἀκοὴ διὰ ῥήματος Χριστοῦ. 18 ἀλλὰ λέγω, μὴ οὐκ ἤκουσαν; μενοῦνγε Εἰς πᾶσαν τὴν γῆν ἐξῆλθεν ὁ φθόγγος αὐτῶν, καὶ εἰς τὰ πέρατα τῆς οἰκουμένης τὰ ῥήματα αὐτῶν. 19 ἀλλὰ λέγω, μὴ Ἰσραὴλ οὐκ ἔγνω; πρῶτος Μωϋσῆς λέγει Ἐγὼ παραζηλώσω ὑμᾶς ἐπ’ οὐκ ἔθνει, ἐπ’ ἔθνει ἀσυνέτῳ παροργιῶ ὑμᾶς. 20 Ἡσαΐας δὲ ἀποτολμᾷ καὶ λέγει Εὑρέθην τοῖς ἐμὲ μὴ ζητοῦσιν, ἐμφανὴς ἐγενόμην τοῖς ἐμὲ μὴ ἐπερωτῶσιν. 21 πρὸς δὲ τὸν Ἰσραὴλ λέγει Ὅλην τὴν ἡμέραν ἐξεπέτασα τὰς χεῖράς μου πρὸς λαὸν ἀπειθοῦντα καὶ ἀντιλέγοντα. [Criterion 1, criterion 4:] 1 Brothers, my heart’s desire and my prayer to God is for Israel, that they may be saved. 2 For I testify about them [Marcion: Israel (?)] that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, they didn’t subject themselves to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the fulfillment of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. [Criterion 1, criterion 4:] 5 For Moses writes about the righteousness of the law, “The one who does them will live by them.” 6 But the righteousness which is of faith says this, “Don’t say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ (that is, to bring Christ down); 7 or, ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’ (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead.)” 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth, and in your heart;” that is, the word of faith which we preach: 9 that if you will confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart, one believes resulting in righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes in him will not be disappointed.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, and is rich to all who call on him. 13 For, “Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.” 14 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in him whom they have not heard? How will they hear without a preacher? 15 And how will they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the Good News of peace, who bring glad tidings of good things!” 16 But they didn’t all listen to the glad news. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” 17 So faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. 18 But I say, didn’t they hear? Yes, most certainly, “Their sound went out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world.” 19 But I ask, didn’t Israel know? First Moses says, “I will provoke you to jealousy with that which is no nation. I will make you angry with a nation void of understanding.” 20 Isaiah is very bold and says, “I was found by those who didn’t seek me. I was revealed to those who didn’t ask for me.” 21 But about Israel he says, “All day long I stretched out my hands to a disobedient and contrary people.”


Tertullian, Against Marcion 5.14.6: [6] Salio et hic amplissimum abruptum intercisae scripturae, sed apprehendo testimonium perhibentem apostolum Israeli, quod zelum dei habeant, sui utique, non tamen per scientiam. Deum enim, inquit, ignorantes, et suam iustitiam sistere quaerentes, non subiecerunt se iustitiae dei; finis etenim legis Christus in iustitia omni credenti. / [6] I have here a very wide gulf of expunged Scripture to leap across; however, I alight on the place where the apostle bears record of Israel "that they have a zeal of God"----their own God, of course----"but not according to knowledge. For," says he, "being ignorant of (the righteousness of) God, and going about to establish their own righteousness, they have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God; for Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth."
Tertullian, Against Marcion 5.14.9: [9] Quid enim deliquerant, si iustitiam dei sui adversus eum sistebant quem ignorabant? Atquin exclamat: O profundum divitiarum et sapientiae dei, et investigabiles viae eius! Unde illa eruptio? Ex recordatione scilicet scripturarum quas retro revolverat, ex contemplatione sacramentorum quae supra disseruerat in fidem Christi ex lege venientem. Haec si Marcion de industria erasit, quid apostolus eius exclamat, nullas intuens divitias dei, tam pauperis et egeni quam qui nihil condidit, nihil praedicavit, nihil denique habuit, ut qui in aliena descendit? Sed enim et opes et divitiae creatoris olim absconditae, nunc reseratae. Sic enim repromiserat: Et dabo illis thesauros occultos, invisibiles aperiam eis. / [9] For where had been their sin, if they only maintained the righteousness of their own God against one of whom they were ignorant? But he exclaims: "O the depth of the riches and the wisdom of God; how unsearchable also are His ways!" Whence this outburst of feeling? Surely from the recollection of the Scriptures, which he had been previously turning over, as well as from his contemplation of the mysteries which he had been setting forth above, in relation to the faith of Christ coming from the law. If Marcion had an object in his erasures, why does his apostle utter such an exclamation, because his god has no riches for him to contemplate? So poor and indigent was he, that he created nothing, predicted nothing----in short, possessed nothing; for it was into the world of another God that he descended. The truth is, the Creator's resources and riches, which once had been hidden, were now disclosed.

BeDuhn translates it correctly, but either Ben or Roth fudges it. The parentheses remind me of those footnotes in the NRSV that tell the reader what is actually in the Greek although they bowderlize the main text.
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Peter Kirby
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Re: Data Science and the Gospels

Post by Peter Kirby »

Irish1975 wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 3:37 pmThere are plenty of sources that Roth or BeDuhn or whoever haven’t worked into their reconstructions.
Which ones do you have in mind?
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