Marcion + Judaisation = a fashioned Christ

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mlinssen
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Marcion + Judaisation = a fashioned Christ

Post by mlinssen »

Adversus haereses 4.4.4:

[4] They, at any rate, receive his Antitheses; and more than that, they make ostentatious use96 of them. Proof out of these is enough for me. For if the Gospel, said to be Luke's which is current amongst us97 (we shall see whether it be also current with Marcion), is the very one which, as Marcion argues in his Antitheses, was interpolated by the defenders of Judaism, for the purpose of such a conglomeration with it of the law and the prophets as should enable them out of it to fashion their Christ, surely he could not have so argued about it, unless he had found it (in such a form).

In my book this is exactly what happened.
Surely this chapter has had some comment by some already; could anyone point me somewhere?
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MrMacSon
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Re: Marcion + Judaisation = a fashioned Christ

Post by MrMacSon »

mlinssen wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 12:58 pm
Adversus haereses 4.4.4:

[4] They, at any rate, receive his Antitheses; and more than that, they make ostentatious use96 of them. Proof out of these is enough for me. For if the Gospel, said to be Luke's which is current amongst us97 (we shall see whether it be also current with Marcion), is the very one which, as Marcion argues in his Antitheses, was interpolated by the defenders of Judaism, for the purpose of such a conglomeration with it of the law and the prophets as should enable them out of it to fashion their Christ, surely he could not have so argued about it, unless he had found it (in such a form).

In my book this is exactly what happened.
Surely this chapter has had some comment by some already; could anyone point me somewhere?
  • lol. Great 'catch.'

    Irenaeus is trying to [fallaciously] argue from incredulity, too:

    [4] They, at any rate, receive his Antitheses; and more than that, they make ostentatious use96 of them. Proof out of these is enough for me. For if the Gospel, said to be Luke's which is current amongst us97 (we shall see whether it be also current with Marcion), is the very one which, as Marcion argues in his Antitheses, was interpolated by the defenders of Judaism, for the purpose of such a conglomeration with it of the law and the prophets[/highlight] as should enable them out of it to fashion their Christ, surely he could not have so argued about it, unless he had found it (in such a form).

And, using Martijn's 'version', this works:

[4] They, at any rate, receive his Antitheses; and more than that, they make ostentatious use96 of them. Proof out of these is enough for me. For if the Gospel, said to be Luke's which is current amongst us97 (we shall see whether it be also current with Marcion), is the very one which, as Marcion argues in his Antitheses, was interpolated by the defenders of Judaism, for the purpose of such a conglomeration with it of the law and the prophets as should enable them out of it to fashion their Christ, surely he could not have so argued about it, unless he had found it (in such a form).

via https://www.tertullian.org/fathers2/ANF ... 23_1655600:
96 = Praeferunt
97 = Penes nos
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MrMacSon
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Re: Marcion + Judaisation = a fashioned Christ

Post by MrMacSon »

In the previous section, in Adv. haer. 4.4.3, Irenaeus sought to make Paul versus Peter equivalent to or part of the Marcion v Luke dilemma:


... Well, but Marcion, finding the Epistle of Paul to the Galatians (wherein he rebukes even apostles) for "not walking uprightly according to the truth of the gospel," (as well as accuses certain false apostles of perverting the gospel of Christ), labours very hard to destroy the character of those Gospels which are published as genuine and under the name of apostles, in order, forsooth, to secure for his own Gospel the credit which he takes away from them. But then, even if he censures Peter and John and James, who were thought to be pillars, it is for a manifest reason. They seemed to be changing their company from respect of persons. And yet as Paul himself "became all things to all men," that he might gain all, it was possible that Peter also might have betaken himself to the same plan of practising somewhat different from what he taught. And, in like manner, if false apostles also crept in, their character too showed itself in their insisting upon circumcision and the Jewish ceremonies. So that it was not on account of their preaching, but of their conversation, that they were marked by St. Paul, who would with equal impartiality have marked them with censure, if they had erred at all with respect to God the Creator or His Christ. Each several case will therefore have to be distinguished.

When Marcion complains that apostles are suspected (for their prevarication and dissimulation) of having even depraved the gospel, he thereby accuses Christ, by accusing those whom Christ chose. If, then, the apostles, who are censured simply for inconsistency of walk, composed the Gospel in a pure form, but false apostles interpolated their true record; and if our own copies have been made from these, where will that genuine text of the apostle's writings be found which has not suffered adulteration? Which was it that enlightened Paul[?] and through him Luke? It is either completely blotted out, as if by some deluge—being obliterated by the inundation of falsifiers—in which case even Marcion [supposedly] does not possess the true Gospel; or else, is that very edition which Marcion alone possesses the true one, that is, of the apostles? How, then, does that agree with ours, which is said not to be (the work) of apostles, but of Luke? Or else, again, if that which Marcion uses is not to be attributed to Luke simply because it does agree with ours (which, of course, is, also adulterated in its title), then it is the work of apostles. Our Gospel, therefore, which is in agreement with it, is equally the work of apostles, but also adulterated in its title.


So, why would Peter (and John and James) be "practising somewhat different from what he/[they] taught" if they had been taught 'the truth' by Christ himself ??

And what does "it was not on account of their preaching, but of their conversation, that they were marked by St. Paul" mean? Why the shift from "practising somewhat different from what he taught ??

eta:
re Why would Peter be [said to be] "practising somewhat different from what he taught" when one of the significant post-resurrection appearances of Jesus - and the only appearance to a named disciple, iirc, was an appearance to Peter in Luke 24:34 (albeit, in Luke, after he appeared to two unnamed men on the road to Emmaus) ?
  • He appeared to Mary Magdalene as a gardener (Mark 16:9-11; John 20:11-18)
  • He appeared to the other two women who were with Mary Magdalene—Salome and Mary the mother of James (Matthew 28:9-10)
  • He appeared to Peter (Luke 24:34)
  • He appeared to two men on the road to Emmaus (Luke 24:13-32)
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