A middle way between Vinzent and Klinghardt

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Giuseppe
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A middle way between Vinzent and Klinghardt

Post by Giuseppe »

  • Kunigunde has advanced the suspicion that Klinghardt, not being able to prove the Marcionite priority over Luke (too much 'Jewish' sounds the proto-Luke), has given up to the assumption that proto-Luke was written by Marcion, to conclude rather that the Evangelion was only adopted by Marcion.
    Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 1:23 am Klinghardt knows this and tries to solve this problem in such a way that the text was not written by Marcion, but only used. But then it would be obvious that the text was written by a harmonizer who kept Paul on a short leash and one would wonder why Marcion didn't get that.
  • From the other hand, Vinzent, with that (now that more and more I think about it) very stupid article 'Marcion the Jew', tries to solve the same problem by judaizing even only partially Marcion, by making him a son of a Judaizer et similia. (in this, following the obtusity of Secret Alias).


I wonder: why is not the truth in the middle?

The Gnostic Marcion derived from radical gentilizers the proto-Luke, but he added things very "marcionite" to be said, things of which none better candidate can be shown, apart Marcion himself. For a list of these items:

the parable of wineskins;
the descent from above;
the scandalized John the Baptist;
the critical distance from John's disciples;
the Father's Prayer
the logion on the fire thrown on the earth
the love for sinners and gluttons
the sympathy for Samaritans
the mention of Pilate
the god only being called 'the Good'
the temptation of Jesus by introducing "there out" not-existent mother and brothers
the recognition only by demons (and possibly not even by them!)
the conflict with Moses and Elijah on the Tabor
the Son of Man has no place to lay his head since he is pure spirit, without a body
the parable of the two trees
the 'tu dices, ego non', spoken by Jesus before the high priests and Pilate
the origin of the authority of Jesus being unknown, differently from the origin of the authority of the Baptist being too much known (from men or from demiurge, in both cases the men are known, and the demiurge is known).
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Peter Kirby
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Re: A middle way between Vinzent and Klinghardt

Post by Peter Kirby »

Giuseppe wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 7:29 am The Gnostic Marcion
What's a Gnostic in this sentence, and how was Marcion one?
vocesanticae
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Re: A middle way between Vinzent and Klinghardt

Post by vocesanticae »

Giuseppe wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 7:29 am
  • Kunigunde has advanced the suspicion that Klinghardt, not being able to prove the Marcionite priority over Luke (too much 'Jewish' sounds the proto-Luke), has given up to the assumption that proto-Luke was written by Marcion, to conclude rather that the Evangelion was only adopted by Marcion.
    Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 1:23 am Klinghardt knows this and tries to solve this problem in such a way that the text was not written by Marcion, but only used. But then it would be obvious that the text was written by a harmonizer who kept Paul on a short leash and one would wonder why Marcion didn't get that.
  • From the other hand, Vinzent, with that (now that more and more I think about it) very stupid article 'Marcion the Jew', tries to solve the same problem by judaizing even only partially Marcion, by making him a son of a Judaizer et similia. (in this, following the obtusity of Secret Alias).

Vinzent's article on "Marcion the Jew" is brilliant and much needed disruption to the conventional wisdom. All of the research I've done and findings I've released completely supports the Hellenistic Judean content of the Marcionite scriptures, both the Evangelion and Apostolos. The much later accusations of Marcion's texts being anti-Jewish are completely tendentious, most of all the claim that he removed a bunch of references to the Judean scriptures. There are many, many references to these scriptures in both the Evangelion and Apostolos, just not the extended LXX catenae characteristic of the canonical redactions, romanticized Judean temple piety, etc.

With BeDuhn and Klinghardt, I concur that Marcion's own views should be analyzed and understood separately from the texts that he sponsored and promoted, rather than reading the scriptures as products of his own voice. Even so, his views are well within the bounds of Hellenistic Judean traditions of the 2nd century, especially as found in the NHC, with their blend of devotional and critical engagement with Judean sacred texts, middle Platonism, mild Stoicism, dialectical method, etc. These are intra-Jewish (i.e., diaspora Judean philosophical) critiques, not outsider critiques like those of Pliny, Lucian, Celsus and Porphyry.
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Re: A middle way between Vinzent and Klinghardt

Post by Secret Alias »

Of course Marcion was a Jew. Who else would care so much about this fucking book. In the original (Samaritan & Qumran) Exodus = one God seen on the mountain + another God heard in heaven. Not only are Jews the only people of antiquity that CARED about this book, also Marcion's Jewishness was that he was the only Christian who UNDERSTOOD it. Watch American History X. Non-Jews never figure in Biblical exegesis.
Giuseppe
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Re: A middle way between Vinzent and Klinghardt

Post by Giuseppe »

vocesanticae wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 4:11 pm

With BeDuhn and Klinghardt, I concur that Marcion's own views should be analyzed and understood separately from the texts that he sponsored and promoted, rather than reading the scriptures as products of his own voice.
I see here a bit of human too human hypocrisy: Marcion is useful insofar he is a "Jew", he is not useful, even nocive, when he is an enemy of YHWH.

Take his docetism, for example. Why is the following verse:

“Foxes have dens and birds have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head”

...interpreted as a saying coming from a intra-Jewish social conflict etc, and not as evidence of the docetic views of Marcion? Or as evidence of the very Gnostic view that Jesus was entirely alien from the world of the demiurge?

Remember that Detering argued for Marcion being called Peregrinus by Lucian precisely in virtue of this feature of the marcionite Jesus.

If Marcion was an anti-YHWH, and a verse of the Evangelion can be interpreted as anti-YHWH, then the apple doesn't fall far from the tree.
Giuseppe
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Re: A middle way between Vinzent and Klinghardt

Post by Giuseppe »

Peter Kirby wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 1:02 pm
Giuseppe wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 7:29 am The Gnostic Marcion
What's a Gnostic in this sentence, and how was Marcion one?
gnostic in two ways:
  • Anti-demiurgism: Marcion hated YHWH; see the parable of the two trees, allegory of two gods;
  • Esoteric knowledge: who was there to witness the descent of Jesus from above?
But I insist especially on the first point. The parable of the two trees (Luke 6:43-45) is found in the gospel of an enemy of YHWH: how of grace can one think that Marcion merely inherited a such parable from a previous Jewish milieu and not rather himself invent it ?

My two cents: the scholars who insist on the "Jewishness" of Marcion do so because they are embarrassed by the dualism of some passages and want to eclipse it.
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