The Demiurge or Evil Creator God in the Evangelion

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Giuseppe
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Re: The Demiurge or Evil Creator God in the Evangelion

Post by Giuseppe »

In the episode about the origin of the authority of Jesus.

The origin of the authority of Jesus is, for Marcion, obviously the Alien God.

Jesus's answer (= that the Alien God is the origin of the his authority) is implicit in the mere fact that, at contrary, the origin of the baptism of John, beyond if it came from YHWH or from men, is known.

Ho can the pharisees know the Unknown God, when they don't want (or: can't) to answer about known facts??
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Ken Olson
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Re: The Demiurge or Evil Creator God in the Evangelion

Post by Ken Olson »

Giuseppe wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 9:40 am In the episode about the origin of the authority of Jesus.

The origin of the authority of Jesus is, for Marcion, obviously the Alien God.

Jesus's answer (= that the Alien God is the origin of the his authority) is implicit in the mere fact that, at contrary, the origin of the baptism of John, beyond if it came from YHWH or from men, is known.

Ho can the pharisees know the Unknown God, when they don't want (or: can't) to answer about known facts??
Could you quote or at least cite the passage you are talking about as it appears in the reconstruction of Klinghardt or Beduhn or Roth?
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Ken Olson
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Re: The Demiurge or Evil Creator God in the Evangelion

Post by Ken Olson »

To clarify the initial question: I am asking if it is unambiguously stated anywhere in the text of the Evangelion (according to the reconstructions of BeDuhn, Roth, or Klinghardt) that the God of Israel is definitely to be distinguished from the Father (the 'good god") referred to by Jesus.

I am not asking if Marcionites interpreted the texts of the Evangelion that way. I am sure they did, or at least were reported to have done so by the so-called orthodox fathers (e.g., Tertullian).

To put it another way, I am not asking if there are texts in the Evangelion can be interpreted in a Marcionite framework (good high God vs. evil creator of the material world who is the God of Israel), I am asking if that framework is ever explicitly described in the text.

This answer to this question will have a bearing on several other issues, including Klinghardt's contention that Marcion was not himself the author/editor of the Evangelion but that he made use of it.

Best,

Ken
Last edited by Ken Olson on Mon May 29, 2023 4:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Giuseppe
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Re: The Demiurge or Evil Creator God in the Evangelion

Post by Giuseppe »

Ken Olson wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 10:17 am To clarify the initial question: I am asking if it is unambiguously stated anywhere in the text of the Evangelion (according to the reconstructions of BeDuhn, Roth, or Klinghardt) that the God of Israel is definitely to be distinguished from the Father (the 'good god") referred to by Jesus.
in that case, there is no doubt that the parable of the two trees is what more closely fits your request. If the "good tree" is the Good God, then the "bad tree" can't be Satan, since otherwise it would raise Satan to the status of a god. And to my knowledge in catholic Christianity Satan is not even worthy of being compared to a deity. He is a mere fallen angel, isn't he?

ADDENDA: Note that the "trees" are mentioned as their function is to bear fruit. The evil tree is such because he creates bad fruit. Is Satan a creator in catholicism?
Giuseppe
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Re: The Demiurge or Evil Creator God in the Evangelion

Post by Giuseppe »

And if Ken's objection is that Satan is called "god of this world" in the fourth gospel, then he can't ignore that proto-John is an anti-YHWH Gospel.
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Ken Olson
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Re: The Demiurge or Evil Creator God in the Evangelion

Post by Ken Olson »

Giuseppe wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 10:51 am And if Ken's objection is that Satan is called "god of this world" in the fourth gospel, then he can't ignore that proto-John is an anti-YHWH Gospel.
My objection to your interpretation is that Evangelion 6.43-45 is a metaphor about trees and it is not at all obvious that the trees are supposed to represent gods, though that is possible interpretation for someone to interpret it that way.

BeDuhn, Roth, and Klinghardt all note that vv 6.43 and 6.45 is positively attested for Marcion, while 6.44 is not. Beduhn's translation is:

6.43 For a fit tree cannot produce unfit fruit; nor, conversely does an unfit tree produce fit fruit. 6.45 The good person brings forth the good from the good deposit in one's heart, and the unwell person brings forth the unwell from the one's unwell (deposit) [p. 103].

Klinghardt recognizes that v. 45 is the application of the preceding parable, and v. 45 is explicitly relates to a person (anthropos).

In the Adamantius Dialogue, Adamantius says the metaphor applies to persons, but Megethius denies this (821c, see the Robert Pretty translation, p. 75).

The metaphor of the trees in Luke/Evangelion 6.43 is therefore not a clear nor an unambiguous reference to two different gods.

Best,

Ken

PS Satan is called the 'god of this aeon' in 2 Cor. 4.4, and the 'ruler of this cosmos' in John 12.31.
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GakuseiDon
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Re: The Demiurge or Evil Creator God in the Evangelion

Post by GakuseiDon »

Ken Olson wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 8:45 am Are there texts in any of the major recent reconstructions of the Evangelion (BeDuhn, Roth, Klinghardt) that clearly distinguish the Father to whom Jesus refers from the God of Israel of the Hebrew Bible/Jewish Scriptures/Old Testament, or distinguish Jesus' Father from the creator of the material world?
No. Other than the first sentence, Marcion's Gospel has nothing explicitly controversial in it AFAICS. Similarly with Marcion's collection of Paul's letters with regards to explicit statements. A Christian today would be able to read them without problem.
Giuseppe
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Re: The Demiurge or Evil Creator God in the Evangelion

Post by Giuseppe »

Ken Olson wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 1:36 pm PS Satan is called the 'god of this aeon' in 2 Cor. 4.4, and the 'ruler of this cosmos' in John 12.31.
Are you aware, true, that in the Marcionite version of 2 Corinthians 4:4 "the god of this world" blinds people from Christ's glory and therefore he can only be a designation for the demiurge. If I remember well, Vinzent's point is that it is the older reading.

As to the parable, you have not explained at all, not even on a level of mere interpretation, why the opposition is between two objects (trees) uniquely from the point of view of their ability to create something.


In addition, how do you explain the fact that the Jesus's answer before the Pilate's question "are you the king of the Jews?" is "you say so", raising the suspicion that the implicit continuation of the same answer is: "I don't".
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Irish1975
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Re: The Demiurge or Evil Creator God in the Evangelion

Post by Irish1975 »

GakuseiDon wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 1:51 pm
Ken Olson wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 8:45 am Are there texts in any of the major recent reconstructions of the Evangelion (BeDuhn, Roth, Klinghardt) that clearly distinguish the Father to whom Jesus refers from the God of Israel of the Hebrew Bible/Jewish Scriptures/Old Testament, or distinguish Jesus' Father from the creator of the material world?
No. Other than the first sentence, Marcion's Gospel has nothing explicitly controversial in it AFAICS. Similarly with Marcion's collection of Paul's letters with regards to explicit statements. A Christian today would be able to read them without problem.
I see nothing “anti-demiurgic” in *Ev. The point of the Klinghardt/Trobisch publication of “The Oldest Gospel” was to show the average Christian reader that it’s just a Gospel of Jesus Christ like the others, only simpler.
Giuseppe
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Re: The Demiurge or Evil Creator God in the Evangelion

Post by Giuseppe »

My banal observation:

If proto-Luke is only passed through the hands of Marcion, then it had to have received some anti-demiurgic bits.

The hands of Marcion had to be even only slightly dirty.

Do you think, otherwise, that Marcion was a saint man?
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