The Demiurge or Evil Creator God in the Evangelion

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Giuseppe
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Re: The Demiurge or Evil Creator God in the Evangelion

Post by Giuseppe »

Irish1975 wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 6:47 am
Giuseppe wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 6:19 am An example: Klinghardt thinks that the baptism of Jesus by John was interpolated because of the coincidential conjunction of two facts:
  • proto-Luke had only a descent from above
  • a guy (Marcion) interpreted it as evidence that Jesus was alien and not Jewish.
I think that’s not right. Klinghardt thinks that the evidence for the verb for “came down” is ambiguous, suggesting either a heavenly descent, or just ordinary human travel, but not decisively one or the other. See p. 516ff.
Yes, he thinks that the descent was originally meant as not a descent from above but from Nazaret (sic), but he does so to insist on the my same point: what raised great trouble in the mind of 'Mark', 'Matthew', 'Luke' (editors) was not merely the presence of a descent in the incipit of proto-Luke, but the pure and simple fact that a such descent was brandished by a guy (Marcion) as evidence that Jesus descended from a world foreign to the demiurge's world.

Said in other terms, Klinghardt thinks that if proto-Luke hadn't ended up in the hands of Marcion (and relative aggressive anti-YHWH propaganda), then we would have today only one gospel (the same proto-Luke) and not 4 or 5.
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mlinssen
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Re: The Demiurge or Evil Creator God in the Evangelion

Post by mlinssen »

Secret Alias wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 5:56 am Why do I want this to be the case? Because my mother is Jewish? Really? How many Jews want Hitler to be Jewish because they are Jewish?

But here goes anyway.

1. Marcion's two powers = Philo's two powers. Philo was the face of Judaism in Alexandria.
Really? How exactly is that the case? How many gazillion other examples of "two powers" exist around that time?
2. As Trobisch noted to me at our German dinner, expertise on the Law implies Jewishness. (like American X the movie)
Really? How exactly is that the case? I and millions of others must be Jewish as well then
3. His understanding of Jesus as a "phantasma" comes from Josephus's understanding of the mysterious "man" who wrestles with Jacob.
Really? How exactly is that the case? Esau pokes Jacob up the ass, errr hip socket and he magically becomes the IS of *Ev?
4. the very idea of a narrative where the god who gave the ten commandments comes "unknown" to Jews (who are supposed to know him). Has a Jesus of Montreal feel to it.
Really? What gives you that idea?
5. the original Jewish tradition held that God only gave the ten commandments. Moses gave the rest. To argue against Moses's laws in favor of "god-given commandments" would make the Jew who thought this seem "anti-Jewish."
Really? And where in *Ev or "Marcion" do we have any of this?
6. there were Jews who were against the building of permanent physical buildings to "house" god. They were called Dositheans. Christianity allegedly spawned from Dositheus according to more than one ancient source (or at least heretical Christianity).
And what does that have to do with the price of tea in China?
7. there were Jews who opposed the slaughter of animals (based on 5 above).
I'm starting to feel like I'm in the thread called "Jesus exists because"
8. there were those who argued that circumcision was not required because of 5.
Can you quote me the specifics from *Ev / Marcion please? Because i have a neat quote from Thomas - who you likely also label "Jewish", I presume?
9. there is no requirement for rest on the Sabbath in its short form (the form that was likely originally written on the replica memorials in the various houses of worship) Remember the sabbath day to keep it holy.
So?
10. the underlying supposition would be that Marcionism was partial to the ten commandments and viewed these as "god given" but juxtaposed the sacredness of these commandments with those given on only the authority of Moses.

Do you need more? That was written in a minute.
You hand out mere assertions without substantiating any of them. I could easily mimic you and claim the exact opposite of what you do, based on the exact same nothing that you provide. At least of half of these 10 is completely irrelevant
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Ken Olson
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Re: The Demiurge or Evil Creator God in the Evangelion

Post by Ken Olson »

Giuseppe wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 6:58 am Said in other terms, Klinghardt thinks that if proto-Luke hadn't ended up in the hands of Marcion (and relative aggressive anti-YHWH propaganda), then we would have today only one gospel (the same proto-Luke) and not 4 or 5.
Giuseppe - Could you cite where Klinghardt makes this particular argument in the Oldest Gospel?

Thanks
Secret Alias
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Re: The Demiurge or Evil Creator God in the Evangelion

Post by Secret Alias »

How many gazillion other examples of "two powers" exist around that time?
Some please that involve powers of mercy and justice and aren't centrally fixated on the Bible. This is fucking stupid.
Secret Alias
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Re: The Demiurge or Evil Creator God in the Evangelion

Post by Secret Alias »

I and millions of others must be Jewish as well then
Ummm. What is the religious faith of the civilization you were raised in? There's a "book" that stands as the cornerstone of civilization. What's it called again? Where's Waldo?
Secret Alias
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Re: The Demiurge or Evil Creator God in the Evangelion

Post by Secret Alias »

As for the rest you have to be familiar with what earliest Christianity and what Marcionism was said to be advocating (i.e. the destruction of Judaism i.e. the temple relgion, opposition to sacrifice, Jesus as Sabbath breaker etc). Opposition to circumcision is in the letters of Paul (Galatians) which was a fundamental part of the Marcionite canon. These concerns have nothing to do with the Gospel of Judas Thomas which was manufactured much later than Marcionism.
Secret Alias
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Re: The Demiurge or Evil Creator God in the Evangelion

Post by Secret Alias »

The difficulty you have is that (a) you're not familiar with Marcionism in all the writings of the Church Fathers and (b) you're not familiar with the range of expression of Jewish identity in the second century. You're not familiar with the arguments for instance regarding circumcision not being in the ten commandments associated for instance with Marcus Agrippa and later transferred to Imperial rulers. You don't understand the nuance of being "against" Jewish law when in fact only Mosaic law was being opposed. It's little things like this that make headway in the field.

Getting back to the OP, as the religion of the Pentateuch knew of no all powerful evil rival to the Almighty God (i.e. the Devil) it is unlikely that Marcionism would be interested in this figure.
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mlinssen
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Re: The Demiurge or Evil Creator God in the Evangelion

Post by mlinssen »

Secret Alias wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 7:08 am
How many gazillion other examples of "two powers" exist around that time?
Some please that involve powers of mercy and justice and aren't centrally fixated on the Bible. This is fucking stupid.
It's telling enough that you still use the word Bible.
How are mercy and justice not universal constructs in any system of anything?!
Philo was fixated on the Tanakh, yes. So was *Ev - yet the former in an entirely positive and even devout sense, whereas the latter... not so much really, or is it?

It's pretty much like Nazis as well as Jews are full of Hitler, extending the example you provided above. They're both full of Hitler so they must be similar if not identical, right?

You just keep wearing your Jewish glasses, alright? And making wild assertions all over the place, that's where your strength lies

[Upon posting I now see your addition, let me comment to that as well]

You club everything together into a completely incoherent sentence as usual, while asserting that Thomas is late without having anything to go on there but opinions by others - while conveniently ignoring other opinions by others who claim the opposite.
Whereas all answers lie in texts themselves, and I have demonstrated ad nauseam that (Coptic) Thomas precedes the canonicals as well as Greek Thomas

Funny how a fundamental part of the Marcionite canon can only be found in Paul - you make a truly great case there
Giuseppe
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Re: The Demiurge or Evil Creator God in the Evangelion

Post by Giuseppe »

Ken Olson wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 7:04 am
Giuseppe wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 6:58 am Said in other terms, Klinghardt thinks that if proto-Luke hadn't ended up in the hands of Marcion (and relative aggressive anti-YHWH propaganda), then we would have today only one gospel (the same proto-Luke) and not 4 or 5.
Giuseppe - Could you cite where Klinghardt makes this particular argument in the Oldest Gospel?

Thanks

If the remarks about Marcion's connection to Cerdo apply (no further elaboration needed here), it is quite plausible that under his influence Marcion's theology developed, and that he was made aware of the correlation between a variety of theological options (theosophy and cosmology) and various other scriptural foundations. The juxtaposition of several large scriptural collections could have evolved into an exclusive disparity that created an ever-increasing rift between Marcion and the congregation until they separated in 144 CE.
If that was the case, the canonical edition would represent the attempt (in intensifying opposition to Marcion's theology) at substantiating Jewish roots of Christianity and its dimensions of salvation history through an expanded scriptural foundation. Marcion's significance for the emergence of the canonical edition would lie in bringing a collection of writings with regional validity into an environment where other Gospels were known as well. Only the (gradual?) revelation of the respective theological implications would have sparked the controversy of material theological differences and a quarrel about the corrept scriptural foundation. This perspective makes the canonical edition of the New Testament appear as the explicit reaction to these two disputes.

(The Oldest Gospel and the Formation of the Canonical Gospels, p. 402, my bold and underline, original cursive)
Secret Alias
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Re: The Demiurge or Evil Creator God in the Evangelion

Post by Secret Alias »

An example of proto-Marcionism in the rabbinic literature:

Midrash Tanchuma, Lech Lecha 20:4
שָׁאַל אַגְרִיפַּס הַמֶּלֶךְ אֶת רַבִּי אֱלִיעֶזֶר, וְכִי מֵאַחַר שֶׁהַקָּדוֹשׁ בָּרוּךְ הוּא חִבֵּב אֶת הַמִּילָה, לָמָּה לֹא נְתָנָהּ בַּעֲשֶׂרֶת הַדִּבְּרוֹת? אָמַר לוֹ: קֹדֶם עֲשֶׂרֶת הַדִּבְּרוֹת הִזְהִיר עָלֶיהָ, וְעַתָּה אִם שָׁמֹעַ תִּשְׁמְעוּ בְּקֹלִי וּשְׁמַרְתֶּם אֶת בְּרִיתִי וְגוֹ' (שמות יט, ה). וְכֵן הוּא אוֹמֵר, אִם לֹא בְרִיתִי יוֹמָם וָלַיְלָה (ירמיה לג, כה) זוֹ בְרִית מִילָה.
King Agrippa asked R. Eliezer: Inasmuch as the Holy One, blessed be He, considered circumcision so very important, why did He not include this precept among the Ten Commandments? He replied: Long before the Ten Commandments were given to Israel, the Holy One, blessed be He, had warned Israel concerning the fulfillment of the precept of circumcision, as it is said: Now, therefore, if you hearken unto My voice indeed, and keep My covenant, ye shall be Mine own treasure from among all peoples (Exod. 19:5), and He said also: If My covenant be not with day and night (Jer. 33:25)…

There are similar statements of Agrippa prohibiting sacrifices (altered in the rabbinic narrative to prohibiting sacrifices EXCEPT FOR HIMSELF) and the like. There was a strand of Judaism or Jewish belief which defended the ten commandments at the expense of Mosaic law.
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