The Demiurge or Evil Creator God in the Evangelion

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
User avatar
Ken Olson
Posts: 1280
Joined: Fri May 09, 2014 9:26 am

The Demiurge or Evil Creator God in the Evangelion

Post by Ken Olson »

Are there texts in any of the major recent reconstructions of the Evangelion (BeDuhn, Roth, Klinghardt) that clearly distinguish the Father to whom Jesus refers from the God of Israel of the Hebrew Bible/Jewish Scriptures/Old Testament, or distinguish Jesus' Father from the creator of the material world?

If so, what are they?

Thanks,

Ken
Giuseppe
Posts: 13732
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: The Demiurge or Evil Creator God in the Evangelion

Post by Giuseppe »

I quote one from a mythicist (prof Prosper Alfaric) who argued for Mark preceding the Evangelion and the latter preceding Luke and Matthew:

the parable of the two trees.

*Ev 6:43-45

...and neither that a bad tree bears good fruit.

The "bad tree" is, sic et simpliciter: YHWH.
Giuseppe
Posts: 13732
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: The Demiurge or Evil Creator God in the Evangelion

Post by Giuseppe »

Another reference to the evil demiurge in *Ev:

But to you, my friends, I say: Do not fear those who kill the body, but cannot kill the soul and also have nothing they can do beyond that. But I show you whom you shall fear: him who has the authority after death to cast into hell. Indeed, I say: Him you shall fear!

(*12:4-5)

"Him" is, sic et simpliciter: YHWH.
Giuseppe
Posts: 13732
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: The Demiurge or Evil Creator God in the Evangelion

Post by Giuseppe »

Evidence that Marcion distinguished between the evil demiurge and Satan himself:

For when you go with your adversary to court, make an effort while still on the way to be released from him; else, he sues you before the judge, and the judge hands you over to the bailiff, and the bailiff throws you in prison. I say to you: You will never get out from there until you have paid even the last quadrans.

(*Ev 12:58-59)

The "judge" is, sic et simpliciter: YHWH.
The "bailiff" is Satan.
Giuseppe
Posts: 13732
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: The Demiurge or Evil Creator God in the Evangelion

Post by Giuseppe »

Another reference to the demiurge in the Evangelion:

No slave can serve two masters. For he will either hate the one and love the other or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and the mammon.

(*Ev 16:13)

Note that Paul Verhoeven, the author of this book:

Image

...does an interesting exegesis of the Parable of the Dishonest Manager (*Ev 16:1-13), I invite you all to read it.

In his view, the "rich man" is the demiurge: YHWH.
Kunigunde Kreuzerin
Posts: 2110
Joined: Sat Nov 16, 2013 2:19 pm
Location: Leipzig, Germany
Contact:

Re: The Demiurge or Evil Creator God in the Evangelion

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

.
I suspect that Ken has something else in mind :D
Ken Olson wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 8:45 am that clearly distinguish ...
Giuseppe
Posts: 13732
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: The Demiurge or Evil Creator God in the Evangelion

Post by Giuseppe »

The conversion of the demiurge is allegorized by the confession of the centurion before the crucified one.

Archeological evidence that the centurion is allegory of the demiurge:


Image


From carvings on Gnostic gems ike the Ophian gem pictured in chapter 7 and descriptions of the gods in their literature, we know that Gnostics imagined the dark lords of the heavens as brutal monsters, animal-human hybrids dressed in Roman military uniforms. Most often the monsters had the heads of ferocious lions or hissing asps. They carried the sceptres of kings in their hands, and sometimes even displayed the heads of theis slain enemeies to terrorize their sujects.

There is a revolutionary edge to the Gnostic vision of the gods, one with political implications. Traditionally, kings and emperors were representatives of the gods, tasked with maintaining cosmic and civil order. When Gnostics characterize the traditional gods as demonic monsters in Roman military uniform, they are implying that their political leaders, the Roman power brokers, are demonic too. In Gnostic thought, the royals and their officials are the bad guys, terrorizing the rest of us, lying to us, and keeping us in servitude in the interests of their demonic overlords.

(quoted from April DeConick, The Gnostic New Age, p. 92, my bold)
Giuseppe
Posts: 13732
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: The Demiurge or Evil Creator God in the Evangelion

Post by Giuseppe »

Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 9:24 am .
I suspect that Ken has something else in mind :D
Ken Olson wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 8:45 am that clearly distinguish ...
so you are forced to imagine a Marcion who, while reading about the Gospel episodes where a "judge" occurs, says: "he is surely allegory for the Good God" (sic).

Really? Do you at least concede that for Marcion the 'judge' is, everywhere he is mentioned in the Evangelion, allegory of the demiurge?
Secret Alias
Posts: 18362
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: The Demiurge or Evil Creator God in the Evangelion

Post by Secret Alias »

Not the Evangelion per se but I saw Lamsa make this argument in one of his books on the Bible.
Secret Alias
Posts: 18362
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: The Demiurge or Evil Creator God in the Evangelion

Post by Secret Alias »

Also it's implicit in the commentaries on the Marcionite interpretation of Mark 10:18
Post Reply