Enough of "Textual Criticism"! What Do People Imagine Marcionism Looked Like If You Visited Their Synagogues?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Secret Alias
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Re: Enough of "Textual Criticism"! What Do People Imagine Marcionism Looked Like If You Visited Their Synagogues?

Post by Secret Alias »

I think in the same way our industrial military complex compels us to start wars all over the world our scholarly publishing complex advances bad arguments for the sake of career advancement of scholars generally. As formerly we suffered from ignorance we know wilt under the weight of knowledgeable sounding nonsense.
Secret Alias
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Re: Enough of "Textual Criticism"! What Do People Imagine Marcionism Looked Like If You Visited Their Synagogues?

Post by Secret Alias »

And I will also say you can see the agenda driven paradigm at work.
I have been willing to evaluate the arguments for the priority of the Evangelion, to Luke or to all the Synoptics, that are based on the presumption that Tertullian and Epiphanius give us accurate information about the text of the Evangelion, and that presumption could plausibly be wrong. If it is wrong, I don't see how an effective argument for the priority of the Evangelion could be made - it's just too nebulous.
So the only way that you can "prove" Marcionism is by engaging in 200 years of nonsense written by nobodies. I have a way of proving or at least putting forward a strong case for Marcionite priority.

The Marcionites held that the Apostle Paul wrote their fucking gospel.

How isn't that a strong argument? Is there anyone older than Paul? Ok maybe Peter. But there is no gospel of Peter in the canon. All we have, according to the orthodox are (a) the "apostles" Matthew and John and (b) the "apostolics" lesser figures of Mark and Luke. If the Marcionites were right about Paul writing their gospel why do we have to go into the mud with all this boring drivel about Mark vs Matthew vs Luke etc. when historical circumstances would prove the antiquity of the Marcionite gospel i.e. that they had the gospel which Paul said he delivered to the Jerusalem Church and which they stole to make "Matthew." Why does everything have to be brought into the paper writing industry. You could solve the problem of gospel origins with a simple sentence:

The Marcionites held that the Apostle Paul wrote their fucking gospel.

Why isn't that the end of the debate? Why do you have to write a fucking 400 page thesis to say:

The Marcionites held that the Apostle Paul wrote their fucking gospel.

In red:

The Marcionites held that the Apostle Paul wrote their fucking gospel.

In blue:

The Marcionites held that the Apostle Paul wrote their fucking gospel.

I will say it again:

The Marcionites held that the Apostle Paul wrote their fucking gospel.

Who fucking cares what modern theories working from a corrupted canon have come up for "Markan priority" or the development of Matthew or Luke.

The Marcionites held that the Apostle Paul wrote their fucking gospel.

The Marcionite tradition lived or died by the authority of their apostle.

Back to work.
Last edited by Secret Alias on Fri Jun 02, 2023 10:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Ken Olson
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Re: Enough of "Textual Criticism"! What Do People Imagine Marcionism Looked Like If You Visited Their Synagogues?

Post by Ken Olson »

Peter Kirby wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 9:01 am
Ken Olson wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 11:48 pm I have been willing to evaluate the arguments for the priority of the Evangelion, to Luke or to all the Synoptics, that are based on the presumption that Tertullian and Epiphanius give us accurate information about the text of the Evangelion, and that presumption could plausibly be wrong. If it is wrong, I don't see how an effective argument for the priority of the Evangelion could be made - it's just too nebulous.
A few points:

(a) I haven't impugned Epiphanius. SA did. Not me.
Ok, it wasn't clear to me that was your position, but I nevertheless would maintain that it's plausible (though perhaps not probable) to think that Epiphanius is reliant on the work of earlier heresiologists rather than directly on a text of the Evangelion, and if he did have a text of the Evangelion, that text may have undergone significant change since the time of Marcion or Tertullian.
(b) I'm also willing to try to dig through the muck with Tertullian.
Good; and I should add that I think the theory that Tertullian did not have the text of the Evangelion is a plausible theory, not that I'm convinced it's the most probable theory.
(c) Even without Tertullian, Evangelion is still one of the best attested gospel texts that is known only from references.
That is some pretty faint praise.

Best,

Ken
Secret Alias
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Re: Enough of "Textual Criticism"! What Do People Imagine Marcionism Looked Like If You Visited Their Synagogues?

Post by Secret Alias »

And then you see why the orthodox had to pretend that Luke was the author of the gospel Paul says he wrote.

The Marcionites held that the Apostle Paul wrote their fucking gospel trumps all other arguments to the contrary.

If there was a gospel written by Paul it is certainly if not the oldest gospel older than any surviving orthodox gospel. Older than Mark, older than Matthew, older than Luke. So why do we have to publish a thesis to say what one sentence demonstrates.

The orthodox gospels were not older than Paul.
The Marcionites claimed they had Paul's gospel.
Paul says he wrote a gospel.
Therefore given that the orthodox did not have the gospel that Paul wrote and claim it didn't exist (or that someone else other than Paul wrote it i.e. Luke) chances are the Marcionite claim to possess the gospel Paul wrote has some authority to it.

In a universe without the gospel of Paul, the Marcionite gospel that they claim Paul wrote is the most likely candidate to be the gospel behind all gospels.
Secret Alias
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Re: Enough of "Textual Criticism"! What Do People Imagine Marcionism Looked Like If You Visited Their Synagogues?

Post by Secret Alias »

You know what it is like? I have an electric car. For years everyone was like for a car you have to a catalytic converter and have specialized workers who build engines and so and so on. I drive a fucking battery driven car which is a thousand times better than any gasoline driven thing:

Image

All you needed was an entrepreneur who thought "outside of the box." But scholars can't see that. Because they are involved in an essentially useless field no new ideas are allowed. It's just the same old same old. No innovation. No change of paradigm. We go back to the time we believed the world was flat and God guided the universe in order to "examine" all the falsified gospels in order to "establish" whether the Marcionite gospel was older than them! Really? I've got another analogy. Let's buy a taxi license to become an Uber driver. Let's call in my order for restaurant take out and then drive up to pick it up. Let's go to a travel agent to buy my next airline tickets. Let's go to blockbuster to rent our next movie. Sheesh.
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Re: Enough of "Textual Criticism"! What Do People Imagine Marcionism Looked Like If You Visited Their Synagogues?

Post by Peter Kirby »

Ken Olson wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 10:01 am
Peter Kirby wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 9:01 am
Ken Olson wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 11:48 pm I have been willing to evaluate the arguments for the priority of the Evangelion, to Luke or to all the Synoptics, that are based on the presumption that Tertullian and Epiphanius give us accurate information about the text of the Evangelion, and that presumption could plausibly be wrong. If it is wrong, I don't see how an effective argument for the priority of the Evangelion could be made - it's just too nebulous.
A few points:

(a) I haven't impugned Epiphanius. SA did. Not me.
Ok, it wasn't clear to me that was your position, but I nevertheless would maintain that it's plausible (though perhaps not probable) to think that Epiphanius is reliant on the work of earlier heresiologists rather than directly on a text of the Evangelion, and if he did have a text of the Evangelion, that text may have undergone significant change since the time of Marcion or Tertullian.
(b) I'm also willing to try to dig through the muck with Tertullian.
Good; and I should add that I think the theory that Tertullian did not have the text of the Evangelion is a plausible theory, not that I'm convinced it's the most probable theory.
(c) Even without Tertullian, Evangelion is still one of the best attested gospel texts that is known only from references.
That is some pretty faint praise.
I'm not sure what you're getting at. It's not like New Testament studies generally is swimming in facts and data.
lsayre
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Re: Enough of "Textual Criticism"! What Do People Imagine Marcionism Looked Like If You Visited Their Synagogues?

Post by lsayre »

What Do People Imagine Marcionism Looked Like If You Visited Their Synagogues?

I can only imagine it to be about as utterly boring and depressing and repetitive as any modern Christian church service.
Secret Alias
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Re: Enough of "Textual Criticism"! What Do People Imagine Marcionism Looked Like If You Visited Their Synagogues?

Post by Secret Alias »

Except the Marcionites had post-op trannies running the services. That at least would be strange enough to keep you alert. I guess the modern Catholic Church's reliance on homosexual priests is a close second.
Charles Wilson
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Re: Enough of "Textual Criticism"! What Do People Imagine Marcionism Looked Like If You Visited Their Synagogues?

Post by Charles Wilson »

My question is:
Where are these "Marcionite Synagogues"?
One of the best books I have ever read was Uzi Leibner's book on "Settlement and History in Hellenistic, Roman, and Byzantine Galilee...".
THERE ARE JEWISH SYNAGOGUES AND SETTLEMENTS ON THE GROUND AND THEY HAVE BEEN EXPLORED AND EXCAVATED.

Where are these correlate Marcionite Synagogues?
Secret Alias
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Re: Enough of "Textual Criticism"! What Do People Imagine Marcionism Looked Like If You Visited Their Synagogues?

Post by Secret Alias »

Bad humanities scholarship can be like a Ponzi scheme. Those who establish certain models have a vested interest in encouraging ever more engagement with their ideas. The system depends on it. It can actively discourage rival approaches and understandings purely based on the vested interest for engagement with those theories. An unconscious collective conspiracy of self-interest.
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