How Ancient Apocalyptic Jewish Ascent Esotericism Laid the Foundations of Christianity

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Ulan
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How Ancient Apocalyptic Jewish Ascent Esotericism Laid the Foundations of Christianity

Post by Ulan »

Another day, another hypothesis. Not that this were a new one, but I found it interesting, anyway.
It's about Paul's conversion consisting in his ascent to heaven that he mentioned in 2Cor 12.


I guess this won't please many people here, but whatever.
Secret Alias
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Re: How Ancient Apocalyptic Jewish Ascent Esotericism Laid the Foundations of Christianity

Post by Secret Alias »

Du wirst für mich immer die Nummer eins sein.
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Peter Kirby
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Re: How Ancient Apocalyptic Jewish Ascent Esotericism Laid the Foundations of Christianity

Post by Peter Kirby »

Ulan wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 1:04 pm I guess this won't please many people here, but whatever.
I've seen only the title so far, but it doesn't sound that far off to me.
davidmartin
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Re: How Ancient Apocalyptic Jewish Ascent Esotericism Laid the Foundations of Christianity

Post by davidmartin »

Yes I think they were,
the Odes are full of ascent esotericism and visions, far more than Paul's brief reference to the same thing

Early christianity is full of visions all over the place
Ulan
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Re: How Ancient Apocalyptic Jewish Ascent Esotericism Laid the Foundations of Christianity

Post by Ulan »

Peter Kirby wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 3:39 pm
Ulan wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 1:04 pm I guess this won't please many people here, but whatever.
I've seen only the title so far, but it doesn't sound that far off to me.
Agreed. I was referring to those people here who have made up their mind that the connection of Christianity to Judaism is a secondary development.
davidmartin
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Re: How Ancient Apocalyptic Jewish Ascent Esotericism Laid the Foundations of Christianity

Post by davidmartin »

that is why the odes get ignored , a jewish messianic sect existing prior to the roman war that rejected Paul is not allowed but its ok to talk about Marcion because he's magically going to solve all the problems from the garbled accounts of the church fathers.
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Peter Kirby
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Re: How Ancient Apocalyptic Jewish Ascent Esotericism Laid the Foundations of Christianity

Post by Peter Kirby »

davidmartin wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 3:00 am the odes get ignored
You've got three people in this thread alone who would be interested in the Odes (you, me, and I would guess Ulan).

If it's not being talked about, who should we blame? Surely the people who are interested in it and not talking about it?

So talk about it.

Here's a question. Were the Odes pre-Christian or composed by a Christian?

(Define that term however you want.)
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Irish1975
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Re: How Ancient Apocalyptic Jewish Ascent Esotericism Laid the Foundations of Christianity

Post by Irish1975 »

Every
Nostic
Ode
Causes
Headaches
davidmartin
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Re: How Ancient Apocalyptic Jewish Ascent Esotericism Laid the Foundations of Christianity

Post by davidmartin »

Here's a question. Were the Odes pre-Christian or composed by a Christian?
first to admit i'm a forum noob, and i've said my fair share of dumb stuff in the past
but ah great question, i'd go for Christian 100% but defined as 'whatever original Christianity was'
what i'm seeing in them is they have great similarities to pauline style Christianity
..but..
great differences to it as well that would put them at odds

this is an awkward position i feel to take. it's not black and white

but your original question hinted at pre-christian roots, well yes there has to be some as well. perhaps the wisdom side of Judaism or some reflective or esoteric side that doesn't really feel threatened by hellenism or need to appropriate it like Philo seems to. People seem to have a narrow definition of Judaism, i'm not sure i can say what a religion 'is', it's cultural, the odes have that jewish mindset i think
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Irish1975
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Re: How Ancient Apocalyptic Jewish Ascent Esotericism Laid the Foundations of Christianity

Post by Irish1975 »

Seems like Enoch is relatively neglected here for its influence on the Gospels. Or maybe just since Ben left.
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