Why did Mark make useful 'swords and clubs'?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Giuseppe
Posts: 13732
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Why did Mark make useful 'swords and clubs'?

Post by Giuseppe »


While *Ev had contrasted the armed arrest with the opportunity of detaining Jesus in the temple without violence, Mark showed through the sword stroke that the squad's armament was appropriate after all.

(The Oldest Gospel and the Formation of the Canonical Gospels, p. 301, my bold)


What was the theological reason for Mark contradicting so blatantly the Jesus's words:

“Am I leading a rebellion,” said Jesus, “that you have come out with swords and clubs to capture me? 49 Every day I was with you, teaching in the temple courts, and you did not arrest me. But the Scriptures must be fulfilled.”

(Mark 14:48-49)

...when the "swords and clubs" were really useful to punish the violence by at least a disciple of Jesus

Then one of those standing near drew his sword and struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his ear.

(Mark 14:47)


Note the difference:
  • in *Ev, 'swords and clubs' are said not necessary by Jesus, and de facto they were not necessary at all.
  • in Mark, 'swords and clubs' are said not necessary by Jesus,contra factum that only a verse before, they had to be useful to stop a violent disciple of Jesus.
Why did Mark work so?
  • A possible reason is that in *Ev the contrast is deliberately between the misunderstanding of the people who wanted to arrest Jesus with 'swords and clubs' and the real identity of Jesus: they believe him a rebel Messiah contra factum that Jesus is not the Jewish Messiah.
  • Embarrassed by this fact, Mark introduced the violent incident of the mutilated ear: in this way he has introduced the same misunderstanding about the real identity of Jesus among the same disciples of Jesus. The violent disciple worked with violence on the slave's ear because he believed that his leader Jesus was the Jewish Messiah.
If the misunderstanding about the real identity of Jesus was found among the same his disciples, then its theological implications could be sanitized entirely within an orthodox view: Jesus is the Jewish Messiah, only he was not the military warrior. The true disciples of Jesus had only to improve their view of the Jewish messiah.
Paul the Uncertain
Posts: 994
Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:25 am
Contact:

Re: Why did Mark make useful 'swords and clubs'?

Post by Paul the Uncertain »

GMark doesn't say who struck the blow. Jesus's remarks follow the narration of the blow. Except for Judas, the whereabouts of the disciples is unknown at the moment when Mark's Jesus is captured.
Giuseppe
Posts: 13732
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: Why did Mark make useful 'swords and clubs'?

Post by Giuseppe »

Are you meaning that the soldiers didn't prevent, even only with the threat of their 'swords and clubs', the violent disciple from committing other violence in addition to that already done by him?
Giuseppe
Posts: 13732
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: Why did Mark make useful 'swords and clubs'?

Post by Giuseppe »

Really the slave's ear episode is a midrash designed to prove that Jesus is the true Jewish high priest, since the OT scriptures prescribed somewhere that the high priests has to have his property (servants included) perfectly without imperfections or wounds of any kind.

No wonder why Mark introduced it in a story where the episode was totally missing: Mark wanted to prove implicitly that Jesus was the Jewish ideal high priest, against the Marcionite use of *Ev to prove the contrary.
Giuseppe
Posts: 13732
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: Why did Mark make useful 'swords and clubs'?

Post by Giuseppe »

What confirms my point beyond any doubt is that *Ev is without the episode where the high priest rips off his clothes, in virtue of the same midrash described above.

It is impossible that the gentile Marcion knew the midrashical meaning of the laceration of clothes by the high priest. Therefore, if he had found a such episode in Mark, then Marcion would have left willingly it, not knowing its meaning.

Since he didn't so, then the contrary is true: Mark added the midrashical episodes to prove that Jesus is the true ideal Jewish high priest.
Giuseppe
Posts: 13732
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: Why did Mark make useful 'swords and clubs'?

Post by Giuseppe »

Peter Kirby wrote: Sat Mar 03, 2018 5:24 pm

“Antigonus himself also bit off Hyrcanus’s ears with his own teeth, as he fell down upon his knees to him, that so he might never be able upon any mutation of affairs to take the high priesthood again, for the high priests that officiated were to be complete, and without blemish.” (Josephus, War, 1.13.9)
Marcion would not have bothered with such nonsense.
Giuseppe
Posts: 13732
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: Why did Mark make useful 'swords and clubs'?

Post by Giuseppe »

So Neil:
As for symbolism: I have just remembered the passage in Josephus War where

“Antigonus himself also bit off Hyrcanus’s ears with his own teeth, as he fell down upon his knees to him, that so he might never be able upon any mutation of affairs to take the high priesthood again, for the high priests that officiated were to be complete, and without blemish.”

(War, 1.13.9)

— Of course, I’ve read something along these lines before. . . .

The attack on the high priest’s servant was a vicarious attack on the high priest, rendering him unfit for the office. Compare the later scene where he breaks the commandment by tearing his robes (Leviticus 21).

Now that makes excellent poetic sense to me. Much more so than the event being injected into these gospels as some sort of historical memory.

The irony is that the 'event' has been 'injected' into *Ev by Mark in full anti-marcionite polemic.
Paul the Uncertain
Posts: 994
Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:25 am
Contact:

Re: Why did Mark make useful 'swords and clubs'?

Post by Paul the Uncertain »

Giuseppe wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 6:46 am Are you meaning that the soldiers didn't prevent, even only with the threat of their 'swords and clubs', the violent disciple from committing other violence in addition to that already done by him?
There is nothing in GMark that any disciple of Jesus committed armed violence, or that any disciple even was armed.

There are, however, armed men in the scene. The setting is torchlit nightscape. Mark affords ample scope for what moderns call "friendly fire" to explain the injury.

I don't know that that is what Mark intended. I submit that you don't know what he intended either. Let us celebrate our fraternity of ignorance and keep the speculation within moderate bounds.
Giuseppe
Posts: 13732
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: Why did Mark make useful 'swords and clubs'?

Post by Giuseppe »

Paul the Uncertain wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 10:05 am There is nothing in GMark that any disciple of Jesus committed armed violence, or that any disciple even was armed.
we can surely agree that
  • (1) there was an episode of violence in Mark
  • and (2) the "swords and clubs" were apt in a context where the point (1) is true.
In *Ev, at contrary, docet Klinghardt, there is not (1) therefore the "swords and clubs" were not really apt for the context, as per the words of Jesus.

I have found the reason why Mark introduced the episode of violence where it was not originally, in *Ev.

In Neil's words:

The attack on the high priest’s servant was a vicarious attack on the high priest, rendering him unfit for the office. Compare the later scene where he breaks the commandment by tearing his robes (Leviticus 21).

If the earthly high priest is ipso facto unfit for his role (since his servant was mutilated), then de facto the true ideal high priest becomes virtually, and implicitly, Jesus himself.

Note that, not coincidentially, Mark has the episode of the tearing of the garments by the high priest, differently from *Ev, which makes again my point. It is impossible that Marcion would have removed such episodes from Mark.
Kunigunde Kreuzerin
Posts: 2110
Joined: Sat Nov 16, 2013 2:19 pm
Location: Leipzig, Germany
Contact:

Re: Why did Mark make useful 'swords and clubs'?

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

Giuseppe wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 4:00 am
While *Ev had contrasted the armed arrest with the opportunity of detaining Jesus in the temple without violence, Mark showed through the sword stroke that the squad's armament was appropriate after all.

(The Oldest Gospel and the Formation of the Canonical Gospels, p. 301, my bold)
Nonsense. The armament of the troops is not attested for GMarcion.
Post Reply