How much is Mark distant from Peter?

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Giuseppe
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How much is Mark distant from Peter?

Post by Giuseppe »

I ask since Klinghardt says that Mark has replaced Simon Peter in Simon the Leper in the related episode, in order to rehabilitate the figure of the apostle, otherwise put in bad light in *Ev.

From the other hand, the writers à la Dykstra and Adamczewski have insisted again and again on Mark being strongly anti-petrine. Evidently, according to Klinghardt, they have not contemplated the possibility of a even more aggressive form of anti-petrinism in a gospel.

Klinghardt thinks that Mark put in bad light the disciples only for didactic reasons: the readers would have identified themselves in the disciples, by learning from their errors to be not as them, but better.

This solution seems a bit apologetical, since it assumes that the anti-petrinism in Mark is not the result of a polemical sectarian rivarly, one where the name of Peter is forever defamed for that idiot that he was,

...but rather the story that teaches that just as Peter learned from his errors, so also the readers should learn from the story itself. A story that assumes the final conversion and redemption of Peter, not his final abandonment by Jesus. A story that assumes the end of any previous rivalry of the old, if any was there.

Klinghardt assumes that only in *Ev there is real anti-petrinism.
Giuseppe
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Re: How much is Mark distant from Peter?

Post by Giuseppe »

I find this comment on Vridar about Damgaard's view on Peter in Mark very telling since it is made by someone who had not yet read the Klinghardt's book:

Damgaard accepts the view that Mark may well have been a “Paulinist”, but adds that that did not set him up in opposition to Peter despite Paul’s argument we read about in Galatians. (I am reminded of 2 Peter’s conclusion that had Peter declaring Paul to be his “beloved brother”.) If so, then according to Damgaard Mark is declaring the joint authority of Peter along with Paul, not unlike the plan of the Book of Acts.

If we go this far with our interpretation, then our canonical Gospel of Mark becomes a thoroughly orthodox narrative on a par with the Book of Acts
and the later letters claiming to be authored by Peter.

(my bold)

Only another step, et voilà: Mark is anti-marcionite.
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Peter Kirby
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Re: How much is Mark distant from Peter?

Post by Peter Kirby »

And then Joe Wallack said, "Are ye come out, as against a thief, with swords and with staves to take me? I was daily with you in the temple teaching, and ye took me not: but the scriptures must be fulfilled."

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=262

Included in the locked up vault at FRDB (which is being handled by top women) is my Award winning Thread, "The Simontic Problem". "Mark's" Negative Casting of Peter, where I demonstrate, and than some, that a primary literary objective of "Mark" was to discredit Peter as supposed witness to Jesus.

Giuseppe
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Re: How much is Mark distant from Peter?

Post by Giuseppe »

From the same link on Vridar, the following comment by Kunigunde:

Maybe. But according to Clement of Alexandria, the Basilidians claimed that Glaucias, the teacher of Basilides, was a interpreter of Peter, and Peter is in Marcion’s Gospel clearly a more positive figure than in GMark.

(my bold)
...is totally confuted by the pure and simple fact that Marcion has Simon Peter whereas Mark has Simon the Leper.

Obviously all that can be inferred is that this is a strong argument supporting Marcionite priority over Mark.

The attempt to save an anti-Petrine proto-Mark against a canonical pro-Petrine Mark is prohibited by Occam: we have already *Ev as anti-petrine.
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Peter Kirby
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Re: How much is Mark distant from Peter?

Post by Peter Kirby »

Giuseppe wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 11:15 am
Peter is in Marcion’s Gospel clearly a more positive figure than in GMark.

(my bold)
...is totally confuted
The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

Can we then examine the case of Kunigunde? Why was this said? Otherwise, without examination, perhaps it seems right.
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Peter Kirby
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Re: How much is Mark distant from Peter?

Post by Peter Kirby »

This is the word of Kunigunde:

According to Ben partially attested are

Mc 5:9-11 Jesus calls the first disciples
Mc 6:13-14 The commissioning of the twelve apostles
Mc 8:45-46 Peter is mentioned in the story of the hemorrhaging woman
Mc 9:20 Peter confesses Jesus as the Christ
Mc 9:28-33 The transfiguration
Mc 12:41 The parable of the faithful steward
Mc 22:8 Preparations for the Passover
Mc 22:33 Peter explained to go with Jesus to prison and to death
Mc 24:37-47 Jesus appeared to the Eleven

http://earlywritings.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1765

Perhaps they will respect Ben Smith.
Giuseppe
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Re: How much is Mark distant from Peter?

Post by Giuseppe »

Peter Kirby wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 11:18 am
Giuseppe wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 11:15 am
Peter is in Marcion’s Gospel clearly a more positive figure than in GMark.

(my bold)
...is totally confuted
The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

Can we then examine the case of Kunigunde? Why was this said? Otherwise, without examination, perhaps it seems right.
how can Kunigunde prove her thesis that Mark is more anti-petrine than *Ev?

I can imagine what she will say: that "Simon Peter" is not attested in *Ev, pace Klinghardt.

My Case for *Ev being more anti-petrine than Mark stands all on the presence of Simon Peter where Mark has Simon Leper: this change of names is a pure apology of rehabilitation of Peter by Mark. Isn't it?
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Peter Kirby
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Re: How much is Mark distant from Peter?

Post by Peter Kirby »

Giuseppe wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 11:26 amI can imagine what she will say: that "Simon Peter" is not attested in *Ev, pace Klinghardt.
Well, then, have at it. Show that Simon Peter is attested in *Ev, and not just kata Klinghardt.
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MrMacSon
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Re: How much is Mark distant from Peter?

Post by MrMacSon »

Giuseppe wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 11:01 am
I find this comment on Vridar about Damgaard's view on Peter in Mark very telling since it is made by someone who had not yet read the Klinghardt's book:


Damgaard accepts the view that Mark may well have been a “Paulinist”, but adds that that did not set him up in opposition to Peter despite Paul’s argument we read about in Galatians. (I am reminded of 2 Peter’s conclusion that had Peter declaring Paul to be his “beloved brother”.) If so, then, according to Damgaard, Mark is declaring the joint authority of Peter along with Paul, not unlike the plan of the Book of Acts.

If we go this far with our interpretation, then our canonical Gospel of Mark becomes a thoroughly orthodox narrative on a par with the Book of Acts and the later letters claiming to be authored by Peter.


(my bold)
  1. Mark followed Paul in dissing Peter
  2. But, overall, harmonisation of the tropes occurred ie. was part of the evolution of the theological tropes

Giuseppe wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 11:01 am Only another step, et voilà: Mark is anti-marcionite.
  • Meh. One step too far.
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Re: How much is Mark distant from Peter?

Post by Paul the Uncertain »

Giuseppe wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 11:26 am My Case for *Ev being more anti-petrine than Mark stands all on the presence of Simon Peter where Mark has Simon Leper: this change of names is a pure apology of rehabilitation of Peter by Mark. Isn't it?
Just to clarify, is it your view that in GMark, the character Simon, whom Jesus dubs Peter (3:16) and who keeps a house in Capernaum with his brother Andrew (1:29), is the same character as the Simon called the Leper who has a home in Bethany (14:3)?

If so, then do you have some evidence or argument to support that view?
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