More Proof that Tertullian is Arguing from an Orthodox Gospel not (as is claimed) the Actual Marcionite Gospel

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Secret Alias
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More Proof that Tertullian is Arguing from an Orthodox Gospel not (as is claimed) the Actual Marcionite Gospel

Post by Secret Alias »

Another thing about Against Marcion. We are supposed to believe (according to these "Marcionite experts") that Tertullian himself is writing the treatise FROM A MARCIONITE GOSPEL. Really? So let me get this straight. This entire section that follows was written FROM THE MARCIONITE GOSPEL with Tertullian arguing that the Holy Spirit established the words? Really? I am sorry it makes far more sense that the orthodox author is writing FROM AN ORTHODOX GOSPEL, PROBABLY LUKE, AND MAKING THE CASE THAT THE HOLY SPIRIT referencing the prophets IS PROOF THAT THE ORTHODOX VERSION OF THE TEXT IS THE ORIGINAL. Read it all:
Wars, I imagine, and kingdom against kingdom, and nation against nation, and a plague, and famines and earthquakes, and fearful sights, and great signs from heaven, all of which are in keeping with a stern and fearsome God. When he adds even that these things must needs be, who does he claim that he is, one who brings the Creator to ruin, or one who defends him? It is the Creator's appointments he affirms must needs be fulfilled, though being himself supremely good, and these so sad and so fearsome, he would have taken them away rather than have decreed them, if they had not been his very own. But before these things he tells them that persecutions and sufferings will come upon them, for martyrdom and also for salvation. See how this was foretold in Zechariah: The Lord Almighty shall defend them, and they will devour them, and stone them with sling stones, and they will drink their blood like wine, and will fill their bowls as of the altar, and the Lord shall save them in that day like sheep, even his own people, because the holy stones roll down.b And that you may not think this is prophesied of the sufferings which awaited them from foreigners, in the name of all those wars, consider of what sort they are. No one when telling of wars to be waged with lawful
arms takes account of stoning, which is more usually met with in popular assemblies and unarmed tumult.
No one in war measures all those rivers of blood by the capacity of bowls, nor equates this with the blood shed upon one single altar. No one describes as sheep those who fall when under arms in war, themselves contending with equal ferocity, but those rather who are slain in their own station and patience, in self-surrender rather than in self-defence. He says in fact, Because the holy stones roll down, not, Because soldiers fight. For the stones are those foundations upon which we are being built up, laid down, as Paul says, upon the foundation of the apostles;c and these holy stones began to roll down when they were set up against the assault of all men. Here again he tells them not to meditate beforehand what ought to be their answer at judgement seats: for it was he who had put into the mouth of Balaamd what he had not thought of, indeed the opposite of what he had thought of, and when Moses made the excuse of slowness of tongue had promised him a mouth.e And of that wisdom itself, which no one could resist, he gave evidence by Isaiah, This man shall say, I am God's, and shall cry in the name of Jacob, and another shall be inscribed by the name of Israel.f For what is there wiser or more irresistible than a plain and express confession in the name of a martyr who prevails with God ? For this is the meaning of Israel. And no wonder that a check was put upon premeditation by one who himself received from the Father the ability to speak words in season: The Lord giveth me the tongue of discipline <to know> when I ought to utter speech: except that Marcion suggests that Christ is not subject to the Father. That there were prophecies of persecution from near kindred, and of evil-speaking from hatred of the name, I have no need to point out a second time. But by endurance, he says, ye shall make out your salvation, of which in fact the psalm speaks, The endurance of the just shall not perish for ever.g So it says in another place, Right dear is the death of the justh— because of his endurance, no doubt, seeing that Zechariah has it, But there shall be a crown for them that have endured. But so that you may not presume to argue that the apostles were put to distress by the Jews as preachers of your other god, remember
that the prophets also suffered the same things from the Jews, though they were apostles of no other god than the Creator. Having next indicated the time of its destruction, when Jerusalem should have begun to be compassed about with armies, he goes on to tell of the signs of the last end, wonders in the sun and moon and stars, and on earth distress of nations in astonishment, as by the roar of the waves of the sea, because of their expectation of the evils overhanging the world. And that even the powers of the heavens must be shaken, listen to Joel: And I will shew wonders in the heaven and in the earth, blood and fire and vapour of smoke: the sun shall be turned into darkness and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come.j You have also Habakkuk, The earth will be rent asunder with rivers, the peoples will see thee and be in travail, thou wilt scatter the waters in passing by, the deep uttered his voice, the summit of his fear was lifted high: the sun and the moon stood still in their order: into the light thy gleamings will go forth, into the lightning <of> the thunder <of> thy shield: in thy threatening thou wilt diminish the earth, and in thine indignation thou wilt put down the nations.k Our Lord's pronouncements and the prophets' are, I think, in agreement regarding the shaking of the heavens and the earth, the planets and the nations. And what does the Lord say next? And then shall they see the Son of man coming from heaven, with great power. But when these things come to pass, ye will look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption has drawn nigh—at the time of the kingdom, to be sure, to which will apply the parable that follows. So ye also when ye see all these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand. This will be that great and notable day of the Lord, when he comes as the Son of man from heaven, as Daniel says: Behold one like a son of man coming with the clouds of heaven, and what follows: and there was given to him kingly authority,l that which in the parable he had gone forth to claim, when he left money with his servants for them to do business with: and all the nationsl—those which the Father had promised him in the psalm, Desire of me and I will give thee the gentiles for thine inheritance—and all glory serving him, and his dominion is everlasting, that shall not be taken away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed,l because in it they will not die, nor marry, but will be like the angels. Again of that advent of the Son of man, and the benefit of it, in Habakkuk: Thou wentest forth for the salvation of thy people, even for the salvation of thine anointed ones,n those who are to look up and lift up their heads, when redeemed at the time of the kingdom. So then since there is agreement in these statements involving promises, as there was in those which involved shattering down, because of this harmony between the prophets' pronouncements and our Lord's, you will be unable at this point to interpose any distinction, so as to refer the shatterings to the Creator—a god of savagery, shatterings such as a god supremely good could not permit, far less look forward to—but assign to your supremely good god those promises which the Creator in ignorance of him had not prophesied about. Otherwise, if they were his own promises that <the Creator> prophesied, and these were not different from the promises of Christ, <the Creator> will be equal in liberty with your supremely good god, and it will appear that nothing better is promised by your Christ than by my Son of man. You will find that the whole sequence of the gospel narrative, from the disciples' question as far as the parable of the fig-tree, is in its close-knit reasoning so attached on one side and on the other to the Son of man as to combine together in him both the sorrows and the joys, both the shatterings and the promises: nor can you detach from him either part of them. So then as it is but one Son of man whose advent is appointed between those two terms of shatterings and of promises, with that same one Son of man are necessarily associated both the distresses of the nations and the aspirations of the saints: for his position between them is such that he belongs equally to both terms, bringing by his advent an end to the one, the distresses of the nations, and a beginning to the other, the
aspirations of the saints. So that if you admit that the coming of the Son of man is my Christ's advent, the more you impute to him those imminent sorrows which precede his advent, the more you are forced also to ascribe to him those good things which take their rise from his advent: or alternatively, if you prefer <the coming of the Son of man> to be the advent of your Christ, the more you ascribe to him those good things which arise from his advent, the more you are forced also to impute to him those sorrows which precede his advent. For the sorrows are no less closely attached to the corning of the Son of man by going before, than are the good things by coming after. Ask yourself then to which of the two Christs you assign the role of the one Son of man, so that to it may be referred both the one series of events and the other. You have admitted either that the Creator is supremely good, or that your god is stern in nature. Finally, consider the evidence of the parable itself: Behold the fig tree and all the trees: when they have produced fruit, men understand that summer has come near: so ye also, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is at hand. So if the appearance of fruit on small trees gives the sign for the summer season, because it precedes it, no less do the collisions of the world, by going before it, mark beforehand the sign for the kingdom. Now every sign belongs to him to whom belongs the property of which it is the sign, and upon every property the sign is set by him to whom the property belongs. Thus if the collisions are signs of the kingdom, as the fruiting of trees is of summer, it follows that the kingdom is the Creator's, since to him are ascribed the collisions which are the signs of the kingdom. He had begun by saying that these things must needs be—things so frightful, so horrible—your god supremely good—certainly things foretold by the prophets and the law: and so he was not destroying the law and the prophets, for he affirms that those things must needs be accomplished which they had foretold. And now he adds that heaven and earth shall not pass away unless all things be fulfilled. What things are these? If the things which are from the Creator, quite rightly will the elements await the fulfilment of their Lord's proceedings: if the things which are from that god supremely good, I doubt if heaven and earth will await the accomplishment of things which the opponent has decided on. If the Creator is going to bear with this, he is not a jealous god. So then, let earth and heaven pass away: for so their own Lord has determined. Provided that his word abide for ever: for so Isaiah has foretold it will.o Also let the disciples take heed, lest at any time their hearts be overcharged with surfeiting and drunkenness and the cares of this world, and so that day come upon them suddenly, like a snare—because they have forgotten God amid the world's abundance and interests. The warning will have come from Moses.p So deliverance from the snare of that day will come from him who of old issued this warning. There were also other places in Jerusalem where he might teach, and other places outside Jerusalem where he might go out and rest. Yet by day he was teaching in the temple, as he had himself foretold by Hosea, In my temple they found me, and in it was there disputation with them.q But by night he went out into the olive-garden: for so had Zechariah declared: And his feet shall stand in the mount of Olives.r There were also appropriate times for hearing him: for they had to come together early in the morning, because after saying, by Isaiah, The Lord giveth me the tongue of learning, he added also, In the morning he applied to me an ear for hearing.s If this is to destroy the prophets, what must it be to fulfil them?
For what is there wiser or more irresistible than a plain and express confession in the name of a martyr who prevails with God ? For this is the meaning of Israel. This is the etymology of Justin Martyr.

If anyone believes that Tertullian is going through a Marcionite gospel arguing for the Holy Spirit and the prophets to be speaking through it is a very obtuse individual. He's obviously arguing on behalf of the ur-Marcion gospel Luke or at least an orthodox text that he already has in his possession.
rgprice
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Re: More Proof that Tertullian is Arguing from an Orthodox Gospel not (as is claimed) the Actual Marcionite Gospel

Post by rgprice »

The with your claim, is that as far as I can see, unless I missed something, Tertullian does not claim here to be using Marcion's Gospel.

I don't really understand the case you are trying to make. If Tertullian is using Marcion's Gospel, then he is pointing out how passages in Marcin's own Gospel refute his teachings. If he isn't using Marcion's Gospel, then he is pointing out how the "orthodox" Gospel supersedes his. I don't see how either scenario refutes Tertullian's use of Marcion's own works elsewhere?
If anyone believes that Tertullian is going through a Marcionite gospel arguing for the Holy Spirit and the prophets to be speaking through it is a very obtuse individual.
Why? Why wouldn't Tertullian be pointing out how Marcion has misread his own Gospel? All he would be saying is that Marcion failed to fully excise the "orthodox" truth from his own Gospel?
Secret Alias
Posts: 18707
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: More Proof that Tertullian is Arguing from an Orthodox Gospel not (as is claimed) the Actual Marcionite Gospel

Post by Secret Alias »

Tertullian does not claim here to be using Marcion's Gospel
If Tertullian isn't using the Gospel of Marcion here then it is less certain he was using the Gospel of Marcion throughout Against Marcion. That's my point. People read the text as if Tertullian is always using the Gospel of Marcion. I don't think so. Thanks.
Why wouldn't Tertullian be pointing out how Marcion has misread his own Gospel?
That's my point. If you're claiming your neighbor stole your chickens and sold eggs from those chickens at the local market in some sense you're claim involves the eggs being his and yours. They're your eggs because you rightfully own the chickens (or so you claim) and at the same time they're his eggs because people were at the market handing him money in exchange for what they thought were his eggs. Those who read Against Marcion purely as a commentary on Marcion's gospel ignore the "those are my chickens" claim. Right. That's my point.
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