Comments on the above chart:
Adv.Marc.iv.7 ; Panarion 42
Gospel in possession of Marcion.
3: 1. In the fifteenth year of Tiberius Caesar,
Pontius Pilate being governor of Judea,
Jesus descended [out of heaven] into Capernaum, a city in Galilee,
and was teaching [in the synagogue] on the Sabbath days;
And they were astonished at his doctrine,
John ch.1.
1:1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God................And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us
Philo: This is the book of the creation of heaven and earth, when it came into being” (LXX Gen 2:4).31 This refers to the perfect Logos, which moves according to the number seven and is the beginning of the creation both of the mind ordering itself according to the Ideas and of mental sense perception, if it is possible to say so, which also orders itself according to the Ideas. (All. 1.19–20) Niehoff, Maren R. Philo of Alexandria: An Intellectual Biography (The Anchor Yale Bible Reference Library) (pp.219-20). Yale University Press. Kindle Edition.
As noted in the above chart, the gospel of John has mention of it's Jesus figure being 'not yet 50 years old'. The number 49 is 7x7 - an application of Daniel ch.9 70 weeks. Tiberius ruled 23 years, from 14 - 37 c.e. Consequently, these 49 years can begin to apply from either early or late in the time of Herod (Slavonic Josephus and Acts of Pilate. 37 c.e. being the cutoff date.
Putting aside Slavonic Josephus and Acts of Pilate, all the writer of Marcion's gospel needed to do was to use the number 7. (7 years) back from the end of the time of Pilate and Tiberius to the 15th year of Tiberius. (Philo had linked Pilate to Tiberius 36/37 c.e.).
The Logos/Word, said Philo, moves according to the number 7 '
'and is the beginning of the creation both of the mind ordering itself according to the Ideas and of mental sense perception, if it is possible to say so, which also orders itself according to the Ideas.''
Marcion's gospel, like Philo's comments, is not focusing on history but on ideas, on reason, on intellectual development. With such a focus nativity stories are sidelined - after all it is the mature mind that is capable of reason. 'Heaven' is the unseen dimension of our reason, of our ability to think, to function as intelligent beings.
If this is the perspective of the gospel attributed to Marcion, then charges by early church fathers that Marcion mutilated the gospel of Luke are just nonsense. Marcion's gospel and the gospel of Luke are focused on two aspects of the NT story - spiritual/philosophical elements plus historical elements. The 15th year of Tiberius, which both share, does not lead to one being a mutilated version of the other. Marcion's gospel moved along the Jesus and Pilate story - the Logos moved according to the number 7 - understanding developed. That move allowed Luke's gospel to add-in, as it were, the technical details.
Luke's technical details:
Luke 3.1
In the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar—when Pontius Pilate was governor of Judea, Herod tetrarch of Galilee, his brother Philip tetrarch of Iturea and Traconitis, and Lysanias tetrarch of Abilene...
Luke is not content with the 15th year of Tiberius. Lysanias of Abilene has been used to take the Jesus and Pilate story back 70 years to 40 b.c. The time of Herod and Antigonus. (again using Daniel ch. 9 and variations of it's 70 weeks of years)
Lysanias was the ruler of a tetrarchy, centered on the town of Abila. This has been referred to by various names including Abilene, Chalcis and Iturea, from about 40-36 BC. Josephus is our main source for his life.
The father of Lysanias was Ptolemy, son of Mennaeus, who ruled the tetrarchy before him. Ptolemy was married to Alexandra, one of the sisters of Antigonus,[1] and he helped his brother-in-law during the latter's successful attempt to claim the throne of Judea in 40 BC with the military support of the Parthians. Ptolemy had previously supported Antigonus's unsuccessful attempt to take the throne of Judea in 42 BC.
Josephus says in The Jewish War that Lysanias offered the Parthian satrap Barzapharnes a thousand talents and 500 women to bring Antigonus back and raise him to the throne, after deposing Hyrcanus[2] though in his later work, the Jewish Antiquities, he says the offer was made by Antigonus.[3] In 33 BCE Lysanias was put to death by Mark Antony for his Parthian sympathies, at the instigation of Cleopatra, who had eyes on his territories.[4]
Coins from his reign indicate that he was "tetrarch and high priest". The same description can be found on the coins of his father, Ptolemy son of Mennaeus and on those of his son Zenodorus who held the territory in 23–20 BCE.[5]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysanias
Luke goes further back than 40 b.c. This gospel goes right back to 63 b.c. - with it's nativity story placed in 6 c.e. (around 70 years from 63 b.c.) What gave the Lukan writer the interest to go this far back in Hasmonean history. One reason could well be that the Pauline writer had already used 63 b.c. for his own conversion story re Damascus and Aretas.
2 Cor. 11. 32 In Damascus the governor under King Aretas had the city of the Damascenes guarded in order to arrest me. 33 But I was lowered in a basket from a window in the wall and slipped through his hands.
Damascus and Aretas .....yep ..this forum has been around the houses with this problem. Perhaps, at the end of the day the question that needs to be asked is 'why'. Why was Damascus chosen by the NT Paul story as the place for a conversion experience, vision ? What was it about Damascus that was relevant for a Christian conversion ? Was it really just chance that Damascus was chosen ?
Aretas III was the only Aretas to control Damascus - losing control to the Romans around 63 b.c. What interest would a NT writer have with Aretas and Nabataean history around 63 b.c. ? Well, one interest could well be that prior to 63 b.c. Aretas III besieged Jerusalem with 50 thousand men. An attempt to unseat the Hasmonean King and High Priest, Aristobulus II. Aristobulus made a deal with a Roman and Aretas III took flight - experiencing heavy loses on the way back to Petra.
Thus the question - why was Hasmonean history of interest to the NT writers of the Paul story ? One reason would be that 63 b.c. was the start of the Roman occupation of Judea. Another reason would be that 63 b.c. was the end of the Hasmonean dynasty, the end of the Hasmonean era. In the context of this history the conversion of the NT Paul would relate to a new beginning, a road to the gentiles was open. History presented the opportunity for change. The Hasmonean dynasty ended, an era ended. A new kingdom, a kingdom without end, an intellectual and philosophical kingdom was deemed to be the way forward.
NT Paul in Damascus around the time Aretas III controlled Damascus ? That's the NT story not early christian history. A NT story able to place Paul, whether viewed as ahistorical or a historical figure, back to where the history of early Christianly had its origins: The fall of the Hasmonean era and Roman control of Judaea. NT Paul is viewed as the founder of what became christianity - backdating him to the time of Aretas III and Damascus - places him at the very beginning. It places him within a context of Hasmonean history. Hence aware of that history and aware of it's relevance to the NT story.
Aretas III
In 67 BCE, Hyrcanus II ascended to the throne of Judea. Scarcely three months later, his younger brother Aristobulus II incited a rebellion, successfully leading the uprising to overthrow Hyrcanus and take the offices of both King and High Priest. Hyrcanus was confined to Jerusalem, where he would continue to receive revenues of the latter office.[8] However, fearing for his life, he fled to Petra and allied himself with Aretas, who agreed to support Hyrcanus after receiving the promise of having the Arabian towns taken by the Hasmoneans returned to Nabataea by Hyrcanus' chief advisor, Antipater the Idumaean.
Aretas advanced towards Jerusalem at the head of 50,000 men, besieging the city for several months. Eventually, Aristobulus bribed Marcus Aemilius Scaurus, deputy of the Roman general Pompey. Scaurus ordered Aretas to withdraw his army, which then suffered a crushing defeat at the hands of Aristobulus on the journey back to Nabatea.
Chronology, dating, within the NT story, is, I would suggest, of fundamental importance for researching early christian origins. Ignore the dating and one becomes blind to what is in front of ones face.....
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added later
NT Paul's escape over the wall of Damascus is possibly modeled upon the escape of the spies sent by Joshua to Jericho - hence would indicate that Paul saw himself as following in the footsteps of Joshua - the leader to conquer the Promised Land: in other words, the NT Paul is the leader to clear the road ahead to that spiritual or philosophical kingdom. Damascus, like Jericho, a city of gentiles. The road ahead was opened in 63 b.c. but reaching or building that spiritual/philosophical kingdom without end would take time. A slow inauspicious start requiring many hands, many minds, many foot soldi soldiers along the way....63 b.c. to the end of Pilate in 37 c.e. = 100 years of development. No flash in the pan but a constant movement to develop ideas that would sustain that spiritual and philosophical kingdom without end.............
History, as always, is vital to understand where we have come from. However, ideas about that history, the why and the wherefor, the tragedy and the victories along the way, also plays its part to our self-understanding. In other words - history plus - gospel story and the Pauline interpretation of Hasmonean history; as a history leading to a 'salvation' story of an everlasting spiritual and philosophical kingdom.
viewtopic.php?p=157356#p157356
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Lysanias of Abilene and Aretas III - two historical figures, used by writers of the NT, to indicate that these two historical figures were involved with Hasmonean history - history that was of interest to the NT writers. Luke, especially, has demonstrated a willingness to record that history, a history which lies at the very foundation, the root, from which the NT sprung. This is what a chronological approach to the 'technical' details within the NT story delivers. In contrast, Mark's gospel is the Reader's Digest version - great perhaps to have in ones' back pocket - but ultimately lacking the sense of achievement, the satisfaction, that knowing the whole story brings with it.
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