Let's Have a Discussion About What is Authentic About Early Christianity OUTSIDE OF MARCION?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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Peter Kirby
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Re: Let's Have a Discussion About What is Authentic About Early Christianity OUTSIDE OF MARCION?

Post by Peter Kirby »

As if. New Marcion thread when?
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Re: Let's Have a Discussion About What is Authentic About Early Christianity OUTSIDE OF MARCION?

Post by dbz »

blood.png
blood.png (89.82 KiB) Viewed 344 times
Well to define Christianity "proper" per se: There Will Be Blood! Very real and human blood. If this blood is poured out on the soil of Earth; the soil of some outer space location, is likely theologically irrelevant (cf. "Jesus Is an Extraterrestrial". Richard Carrier Blogs. 30 May 2023.)

Obviously this novel blood aspect appears to be a Jewish religious syncretism with a prior christing religion which itself appears to be a religious syncretism with a Helenistic Greco-Roman mystery religion.

So when you say "Early Christianity", do you mean ..
  • the novel "There Will Be Blood" cult
  • the prior syncratic christing religion
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Re: Let's Have a Discussion About What is Authentic About Early Christianity OUTSIDE OF MARCION?

Post by Secret Alias »

Name me one thing outside of Marcion that isn't fake.
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Re: Let's Have a Discussion About What is Authentic About Early Christianity OUTSIDE OF MARCION?

Post by Peter Kirby »

Secret Alias wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 10:52 am Name me one thing outside of Marcion that isn't fake.
The anonymous book Hebrews.
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Re: Let's Have a Discussion About What is Authentic About Early Christianity OUTSIDE OF MARCION?

Post by rgprice »

I think there was a real Paul, and that some portion of the Pauline letters were produced by said Paul. This Paul had a real ministry and a real community developed around his ministry.

The big question is: When?

I'm not sure. It could be anywhere from the 1st century BCE to the 2nd century CE. There are reasons to date Paul to a wide range of dates, but its difficult to put forward a strong case that argues against the traditional dating of around 40-60 CE.

But I think that whenever the Pauline ministry was, during that era the earliest form of this worship was based around the worship of "the Lord" who was seen as separate entity from the Highest God.

During this earliest phase, there was no concept of Jesus as a person. It is not clear to me that the name "Jesus" was even in use or associated with "the Lord" at this point.

The figures worshiped were "God the Father" (equated to Elohim or El Elyon from the Jewish scriptures), "the Lord his Son" (equated to YHWH from the Jewish scriptures) who was the heavenly "Christ".

I think the Vision of Isaiah likely preserves something closest to the earliest conception of Christ the Lord, who was prophesied to descend from heaven at the end of days.

It seems to me that somehow there was a shift from prophecies about the descent of Christ the Lord from heaven to a claim that this descent had indeed taken place. And that's where Paul's ministry comes in.

So I think at first we were dealing with a sub-sect of Jews and Gentile proselytes who were predicting the descent of "Christ the Lord - son of God Most High". Then something, perhaps the First Jewish-Roman War, precipitated a claim that Christ the Lord had in fact descended. But there was no real narrative here, just some claim that "It has begun!" or whatever.

I suspect that the Pauline communities existed in some relatively modest form for anywhere from 10 to 70 years prior to the writing of the first Gospel, the Gospel of Mark. I'd say Mark was most likely written around 120 CE, so when how long these Pauline assemblies existed prior to the writing of Mark all depends on when Paul's ministry really took place.

But, I'd say that Paul's ministry consisted largely of proselytizing to Jews and Gentiles and claiming that Gentiles did not need to undergo a traditional Jewish conversion in order to take part in the covenant and be saved by God Most High. Paul taught against the need for circumcision and following the law in order to convert. He likely made this known to both Jews and Gentiles and was criticized for it and persecuted by Jews.

Regardless of when Paul's ministry took place, the events of the First Jewish-Roman War, and following conflicts, were seen by some as evidence that Paul was correct and that the Jews had been condemned by their own God for being wrong. So the Pauline movement was likely strengthened following the First war, and grew stronger with subsequent conflicts.

The movement, in this pre-Gospel phase, would have consisted largely of a belief in the prophetic value of the Jewish scriptures, a belief that the Jewish God was indeed the Creator and the Highest God, and that the Jewish God had rejected the Jews for misunderstanding his intentions and precepts. There was not necessarily a belief that the Jews has "killed Christ the Lord".

The big draw of the religion was a belief that the Jewish scriptures had prophetic merit and correctly foretold the fate of the world, but that the traditional understanding of the scriptures by the Jewish priesthood was incorrect.
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Re: Let's Have a Discussion About What is Authentic About Early Christianity OUTSIDE OF MARCION?

Post by Secret Alias »

The anonymous book Hebrews
Real in what sense?
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Re: Let's Have a Discussion About What is Authentic About Early Christianity OUTSIDE OF MARCION?

Post by Secret Alias »

I think there was a real Paul
I'd prefer to deal with shorter answers please.
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Re: Let's Have a Discussion About What is Authentic About Early Christianity OUTSIDE OF MARCION?

Post by Peter Kirby »

Secret Alias wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 11:19 am
The anonymous book Hebrews
Real in what sense?
Maybe you should have started with that. What are you looking for?
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Re: Let's Have a Discussion About What is Authentic About Early Christianity OUTSIDE OF MARCION?

Post by Secret Alias »

What isn't fake in early Christianity. What is worth believing in, what is worth working with, accepting, in the sense of not fake, not falsified, not corrupting something earlier.
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