HAramaic: the Hebrew and Aramaic roots in the New Testament

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Steven Avery
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Re: HAramaic: the Hebrew and Aramaic roots in the New Testament

Post by Steven Avery »

DCHindley wrote: ↑Fri Nov 10, 2023 12:33 pm
So, it may be possible this citation (to Isa 59) is to be included in the others, but I do not feel compelled to do so.

I do believe that "the others" refers to the verses being referenced by Paul in his Romans 3 pastiche and the Psalm 14 mirror.
Also he may add the Proverbs verse.

Apparently you think he was referring to your list?
Try to read and understand.

After you take this Romans 3:15 blunder out of your lists, I can look at another.
ebion
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Re: Revelations in Aramaic - the Crawford Codex

Post by ebion »

The book of Revelations is an oddity in Aramaic. It is not in the PeshittA, as it is amongst the 5 books from the Western canon that were excluded in the East, but I think that's because the canon closed early, before they were written or in wide circulation.

A complete copy of it was found in the Crawford Codex: from Information about Crawford MS by andrej
The Codex is a Peshitta text from the 12th century, which has all 27 writings of the New Testament (and a Passion harmony), but is in almost complete agreement with the eastern Peshitta (Hebrews 2:9 being the exception) for the 22. The text originated in a monastery in southeast Turkey. It is interesting to note how it was not too far from the regions in which much of the New Testament also originated.
"On fol. 250a within a multi-coloured border there is a count of the number of shahe, pethgame etc. in the New Testament. It is much effaced. Fol. 250b has a colophon, also not all legible, in a serto hand. The scribe was Stephen, a monk of the monastery of Mar Jacob the recluse of Egypt and Mar Barshabba near Salafo in Tur 'Abdin. He mentions the names of some of his relatives and his teachers. The latter are the late Rabban Quriakos, Rabban Sahda, Rabban Saliba, Rabban ?Marnaha, that is, ?Haya, and Rabban Barsauma. Text and translation are given by Gwynn, Apocalypse, part 2, pp. 31-8 and 94-9 resp."
The Crawford Codex agrees with the eastern PeshittA in all places except Hebrews 2:9; there are some errors in spelling. The western five texts (2 Peter, 2 & 3 John, Jude, Revelation) as found in Crawford are available here: http://www.dukhrana.com/crawford/

The first book by John Gwynn, "The Apocalypse of St. John, in a Syriac Version Hitherto Unknown" (1897), where he also argues that Crawford MS Revelations reads like an original Aramaic text, and not as a translation from Greek.

The other book by John Gwynn, Remnants of the later Syriac versions of the Bible (1909), which contains the four "western" epistles:

Gwynn's Article "On a Syriac Ms. of the New Testament in the Library of the Earl of Crawford, and an Inedited Version of the Apocalypse included in It" is in The Transactions of the Royal Irish Academy", Vol. 30 (1892 - 1896), pp. 347-418 (72 pages). (Gwynn sometimes erroneously omits Jude from his description of the Codex)
Steven Avery points out that an exact quote from Gwynn's book is: "a reconstruction of the Greek text of the Apocalypse which may be presumed to underlie the Syriac", so I'll have to look at it again to see what his exact point of view is, or if andrej overstates the case; I don't find his books easy to read.
Last edited by ebion on Tue Dec 26, 2023 11:14 pm, edited 3 times in total.
StephenGoranson
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Re: HAramaic: the Hebrew and Aramaic roots in the New Testament

Post by StephenGoranson »

The last book in NT is Revelation of John, not Revelations.
Hebrew is not an Aramaic dialect,
and Syriac Aramaic dialect is probably later and more eastern than NT compositions.
Steven Avery
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Re: HAramaic: the Hebrew and Aramaic roots in the New Testament

Post by Steven Avery »

ebion wrote: Wed Nov 29, 2023 12:48 pm The first book by John Gwynn, "The Apocalypse of St. John, in a Syriac Version Hitherto Unknown" (1897), where he also argues that Crawford MS Revelations reads like an original and not a translation.
"a reconstruction of the Greek text of the Apocalypse which may be presumed to underlie the Syriac, with footnotes appended dealing with the relations of agreement and disagreement that subsist between that text and the other chief authorities "

The Apocalypse of St. John in a Syriac version hitherto unknown, ed. from a MS. in the Library of the Earl of Crawford and Balcarres (1897)
https://archive.org/details/apocalypseo ... 3/mode/1up
ebion
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Early Church "Fathers" on the Primacy of the Church of the East

Post by ebion »

Leucius Charinus wrote: Mon Oct 30, 2023 7:49 pm
ebion wrote: Mon Oct 30, 2023 11:05 am All of the "Church Fathers", both East and West, testified to the Semitic origin of at least the Book of Matthew, as the following quotes demonstrate:
So all these early "church fathers" claim to have seen Christian material "written in Hebrew" and/or "written in Hebrew letters". The problem is that we have no primary evidence of this --- everything discovered to date has been in Greek.

Has it occurred to you the distinct possibility (heaven forbid) that each of these early "church fathers" were making completely false claims in relation to any such Hebrew originals?
Has it occurred to you the distinct possibility that you live in a Western/Roman/Byzantian echo chamber such that you believe everything discovered to date has been in Greek?

The Assyrians will tell you otherwise; the Apostolic Church of the East (which uses the PeshittA as their scripture) was probably the biggest church in the world for 1000 years. Their ACoE was founded in Antioch then Seleucia-Ctesiphon after the Early Christians from Jerusalem fled to Pella before the sack by Titus. And whilst Peter and Paul went West to Rome, Thomas went to India via Persia with a shipwreck on the island of socotra, as did the Apostle Bartholomew, and Thaddeus (Addai) of the seventy, known to Eusebius of Caesarea as the Apostle Thaddeus of the Seventy.

Pantaenus, visiting India in the second century around 160 AD, reported that:

he found on his own arrival anticipated by some... to whom Bartholomew, one of the apostles, had preached, and had left them the Gospel of Matthew in Hebrew."
(Eusebius quoted by H.J. Schonfield. The History of Jewish Christianity (London: Duckworth, 1936) at 66.)

The Church of the East was started by Thomas, whilst Jesus was still preaching:
Thomas, one of the twelve apostles, under divine impulse sent Thaddeus, who was also numbered among the seventy disciples of Christ, to Edessa, as a preacher and evangelist of the teaching of Christ. (Eusebius, Historia Ecclesiastica, I, xiii)
Eusebius was shown documents purporting to contain the correspondence that passed between the ruler of Edessa Abgar and Jesus, as recounted if I recall rightly in the Acts of Thomas (Church History I.13.2).

So at least Matthew was being taught mid-2 c. in India; there may not have been much else at that point in an
Early Christian Canon. At the Council of Chalcedon in 451 AD they got kicked out of the Western/Roman/Byzantian echo chamber (a big plus for the ACoE in my eyes :-,). Some of them are still out.

Their Old Testament is older than the extant LXX, and a lot older than the Mazorites:
The Pshitta Tanakh is the ancient Scriptures translated into Lishana Aramaya (Aramaic language) from the original Hebrew text which pre-dated the Greek Septuagint text (LXX). The Aramaic Tanakh uses many Hebraic terms, many times transliterating the words and phrases rather than translating them. Often times the Aramaic Peshitta and the LXX agree against the Masoretic text. The Masoretic text is not the original Hebrew that was used by the translators of the Aramaic Pshitta. In other words, the text used by those who translated the Aramaic Pshitta is much older than the Masoretic text.
You can see for yourself in what I think is the best translation of the PeshittA NT. It's a little hard to read fluidly, but it's great for Christians. Nobody in the echo chamber seems to know about them which is a big mistake.

See also: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7148&p=111567#p111567
Last edited by ebion on Tue Jan 16, 2024 4:08 pm, edited 7 times in total.
davidmartin
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Re: HAramaic: the Hebrew and Aramaic roots in the New Testament

Post by davidmartin »

John 9:38. The blind man healed 'then worshipped him' (Jesus)

If you don't think this worship is original then the Aramaic provides a fix (with the proviso Only in Estrangelo not Hebrew script)
SGD and SED when written are almost identical in appearance
SGD means to worship and SED is a Palestinian Aramaic word 'to join/support/assist'
In Mark and Luke the blind man there joins and follows Jesus, not worship him (assuming this is re-telling the same basic story)

To conclude this essay, the Syrian-Aramaic gospel of John in Estrangelo script contains a word visually similar to another word whose meaning then matches Mark and Luke. SED isn't really a Syriac word (it's not in the lexicons) it's Palestinian Samaritan & Jewish appearing in those lexicons and same word exists in Hebrew.

Admittedly, it's a bit of a long shot unless someone has another reason to lend it more conviction. In the 'for what its worth' category
ebion
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History of the Apostolic Church of the East

Post by ebion »

From: Holy Apostolic Catholic Assyrian Church of the East :
The Church of the East is ... an Apostolic church, established by the apostles St Thomas, St Thaddeus, and St Bartholomew. St Peter, the chief of the Apostles added his blessing to the Church of the East at the time of his visit to the see at Babylon, in the earliest days of the church:
The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son.
Greet ye one another with a kiss of charity. Peace be with you all that are in Christ Jesus. Amen. (I Peter 5:13-14 [KJV])
During the first century of the Christian era, the Church of the East was established in the city of Edessa, in the northern-most Aramaic-speaking city-state of the eastern region. Reference to this can be found in the writings of the historian Eusebius (Ecclesiastical History; bk 1, ch 13). In 280, the Church of the East was officially organized under the Catholicos-Patriarch Mar Papa bar Gaggai of Seleucia-Ctesiphon, and in 410 it renounced all subjection to the see of Antioch.
...
The great subcontinent of India was evangelized by Thomas the apostle. By the end of the 3rd century, 19 episcopal see cities existed, with their bishops spiritually governing the faithful in the holy tradition of the apostles and their teachings.

The Church of the East suffered persecution at the hands of the Persians, because of the hostility between the Persian empire and the Roman-Byzantine empire which had adopted Christianity. The church was and remained a minority in Persia, but was large and active, and noted for its scholastic achievements, its monastic centres, its martyrs and teachers. The pressure of persecution favoured expansion to the east. Missionaries from the Church of the East spread into the Asian continent, proclaiming the message of Jesus Christ in the far off regions of the Mongol tribes. In the 7th century they made their way into China. The so-called "Nestorian Tablet" found in Xi'an witnesses to this early Christian presence in China.

The Muslim conquest beginning in the 7th century affected the church and brought new persecutions. The Mongol khans who had been open to Christianity came under the influence of Islam and turned against the church during their invasions of the Arabian peninsula. Many Christians were killed or forced to convert to Islam. The Church of the East withdrew into the Hakkari mountains (today's northern Iraq and eastern Turkey) which became the home of the patriarchal see, and where it remained in isolation for centuries. When the British established their rule in Iraq after World War I, the patriarch was exiled to Cyprus. Eventually he moved to the USA, when it became evident that the Iraqi authorities would not let him return to his people.
...
The Church was represented at the Council of Nicea in 325. The Nicene Creed is the universally received faith of the church. With regard to the teaching of Nestorius, the Church of the East maintains that Jesus Christ is Son of God and Son of Man, two qnome united in one Sonship. All the documents of the church are in Aramaic, utilizing the Nestorian Syriac script. The sacred rites of the Church of the East include the pre-431 rite of Addai and Mari, together with other texts.
Last edited by ebion on Tue Jan 16, 2024 4:19 pm, edited 4 times in total.
ebion
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Using the tools for the Aramaic roots in the New Testament

Post by ebion »

davidmartin wrote: Fri Dec 01, 2023 4:19 am John 9:38. The blind man healed 'then worshipped him' (Jesus)

If you don't think this worship is original then the Aramaic provides a fix (with the proviso Only in Estrangelo not Hebrew script)
SGD and SED when written are almost identical in appearance
...
Admittedly, it's a bit of a long shot unless someone has another reason to lend it more conviction. In the 'for what its worth' category
Often looking at the Aramaic source helps - follow my lesson for the tools in the Was the New Testament Originally Written in Aramaic? thread.
The KJV has:
And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him. (John 9:38 [KJV])
Look at the Aramaic at http://dukhrana.com/peshitta/analyze_ve ... ize=125%25
Look at the word for worshipped https://cal.huc.edu/getlex.php?coord=620430938&word=7
.
sgd verb G
sgd vb. e/u(a) to bow down
	
G   to bow down in respect Com, -OA. --(a) + l_, qdm : to worship Com.
D   to bow down (pl.) PTA, LJLA.
C   to cause to be venerated Syr.
Gt   to be venerated, worshipped CPA, Sam, Syr.
Dt   to be venerated, worshipped (pl.) Sam, Syr. 
.
Almost a KJV Blooper; without speculating a scribal error, you have "venerates him" which may lead to joins and follows Jesus.
Unless you'd just rather speculate?
davidmartin
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Re: HAramaic: the Hebrew and Aramaic roots in the New Testament

Post by davidmartin »

i sure would prefer to speculate on this bit of John when it looks suspect
for a start the blind man already is a believer thats why they booted him out
it looks like the redactor is just making this a chance to have him 'recognise' and worship Jesus (only when he see's him, resurrection hint) so a word change is very likely. i don't think massaging SGD solves the problem, you need another word, that one is SED then it ties up with Mark/Luke
just make a marginal note if you don't want to fully accept it
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Leucius Charinus
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Re: Early Church "Fathers" on the Primacy of the Church of the East

Post by Leucius Charinus »

ebion wrote: Fri Dec 01, 2023 3:08 am
Leucius Charinus wrote: Mon Oct 30, 2023 7:49 pm
ebion wrote: Mon Oct 30, 2023 11:05 am All of the "Church Fathers", both East and West, testified to the Semitic origin of at least the Book of Matthew, as the following quotes demonstrate:
So all these early "church fathers" claim to have seen Christian material "written in Hebrew" and/or "written in Hebrew letters". The problem is that we have no primary evidence of this --- everything discovered to date has been in Greek.

Has it occurred to you the distinct possibility (heaven forbid) that each of these early "church fathers" were making completely false claims in relation to any such Hebrew originals?
Has it occurred to you the distinct possibility that you live in a Western/Roman/Byzantian echo chamber such that you believe everything discovered to date has been in Greek?
We have the Coptic NHL dated to the middle of the 4th century. At that time, according the historian Ammianus Marcellinus "the highways were covered with galloping bishops". I want to know whether there is any primary physical evidence. Show me a Hebrew manuscript or fragment (codex or role or inscription) which has been dated earlier by C14 or some other method.

If you don't have any earlier date then what is the earliest (physical) extant NON-GREEK and NON-LATIN NT mss of any kind before the Ethiopian Bible codex which has been C14 dated? I believe in the relative value of the primary evidence. The secondary evidence from the "Fathers" is likely highly corrupt and our earliest mss belong to the middle ages.
The Church of the East was started by Thomas, whilst Jesus was still preaching:
Thomas, one of the twelve apostles, under divine impulse sent Thaddeus, who was also numbered among the seventy disciples of Christ, to Edessa, as a preacher and evangelist of the teaching of Christ. (Eusebius, Historia Ecclesiastica, I, xiii)
Eusebius was shown documents purporting to contain the correspondence that passed between the ruler of Edessa Abgar and Jesus, as recounted if I recall rightly in the Acts of Thomas.
Eusebius suddenly and unexpectedly finds the letter exchange between IS XS and the King. He says he discovered the correspondence in the Syriac archives. If you believe Eusebius discovered this handwritten letter from IS XS in the Syriac archives go for it. But make sure you read about Pseudo-Isidore.


Thomas sent to India as a slave of Jesus

One must keep in mind that the legend of Thomas going to India was a story written by someone who would become a heretic. It has as usual another post resurrection setting. The apostles standing around to draw straws to decide who goes where for the great conversion of the nations to the religion of the Galilaeans. Thomas draws the short straw for India. But he doesn't want to go to "teach truth to the Indians". He spits the dummy and refused. The hero IS XS appears to Thomas and orders him to go to India. But Thomas wont go. The next day IS XS takes Thomas down to the slave market. He sells Thomas to an Indian merchant and receives a bill of sale. And so begins the apocryphal story of the Acts of Thomas.

I'd argue that there's no history in the Acts of Thomas. But it's likely that it too was originally written in Greek. As a kind of response to the Greek canonical Acts of the Apostles. The manuscript evidence from Eusebius and the "Fathers" should be read in conjunction with a reading of Joseph Wheless' Forgery In Christianity

https://infidels.org/library/historical ... istianity/
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