Making sense of the Pauline Epistles

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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DCHindley
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Re: Making sense of the Pauline Epistles

Post by DCHindley »

Yes, I see what you are saying,

Somewhere else, or earlier in this thread, I had expressed that Hebrews expresses High Christology more cleanly than the Christological statements in the letters, which are rougher, with Christ doctrines not always consistent between letters. Hebrews is more polished, which I consider a sign of later-ness. I am not sure it is based on the Christological statements in the letters, though.

The commentator, a holder of a "high" christology, and the statements about Jesus as a divine redeemer called Christ from writers of the Gospels, could represent different expressions of a common tradition. We just happen to get samples from both traditions, taken at different times, so they are somewhat different but overall very similar.

DCH
Vanished
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Re: Making sense of the Pauline Epistles

Post by Vanished »

Currently working on a document detailing any direct references made by early Church Fathers to the Old & New Testament. This should help provide dates for the spread (not necessarily the authorship) of the Pauline epistles and other NT/OT books.

Polycarp, Ignatius, and Papias are done, but there's a long way to go.
ebion
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Re: Making sense of the Pauline Epistles

Post by ebion »

Vanished wrote: Sun Feb 04, 2024 10:15 am Polycarp, Ignatius, and Papias are done, but there's a long way to go.
Maybe put them up as you go along: I'd like to see them, and you may get some good feedback.

I'd love ti see the Polycarp, Ignatius, and Papias entries; maybe break them into individual posts.
Vanished
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Re: Making sense of the Pauline Epistles

Post by Vanished »

ebion wrote: Sun Feb 04, 2024 3:12 pm
Vanished wrote: Sun Feb 04, 2024 10:15 am Polycarp, Ignatius, and Papias are done, but there's a long way to go.
Maybe put them up as you go along: I'd like to see them, and you may get some good feedback.

I'd love ti see the Polycarp, Ignatius, and Papias entries; maybe break them into individual posts.
At the moment, the way I've got them written down is something like this:

Ignatius:
Epistle to the Philippians:
Matthew (1:1)
Mark (1:1)
Luke (1:1)
John N/A
Romans (1:1)
and so on...

So they likely wouldn't make super interesting individual posts. I mostly wanted to make it as a shorthand resource to check whether any given book was extant and known at the time of the author writing, but as a deeper analysis I suppose I could expand the above with possible references (since so far I'm only writing down unmistakable quotes/allusions) and some interesting info I've found, such as quotes from apocryphal/deuterocanonical works or quotes from seemingly lost scriptures.
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Peter Kirby
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Re: Making sense of the Pauline Epistles

Post by Peter Kirby »

Vanished wrote: Sun Feb 04, 2024 8:59 pm
ebion wrote: Sun Feb 04, 2024 3:12 pm
Vanished wrote: Sun Feb 04, 2024 10:15 am Polycarp, Ignatius, and Papias are done, but there's a long way to go.
Maybe put them up as you go along: I'd like to see them, and you may get some good feedback.

I'd love ti see the Polycarp, Ignatius, and Papias entries; maybe break them into individual posts.
At the moment, the way I've got them written down is something like this:

Ignatius:
Epistle to the Philippians:
Matthew (1:1)
Mark (1:1)
Luke (1:1)
John N/A
Romans (1:1)
and so on...

So they likely wouldn't make super interesting individual posts. I mostly wanted to make it as a shorthand resource to check whether any given book was extant and known at the time of the author writing, but as a deeper analysis I suppose I could expand the above with possible references (since so far I'm only writing down unmistakable quotes/allusions) and some interesting info I've found, such as quotes from apocryphal/deuterocanonical works or quotes from seemingly lost scriptures.
IMO, keep working on it.

If you post midway, the temptation will be to spend time engaging with all the responses, instead of continuing.
Vanished
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Re: Making sense of the Pauline Epistles

Post by Vanished »

Peter Kirby wrote: Sun Feb 04, 2024 10:48 pm
Vanished wrote: Sun Feb 04, 2024 8:59 pm
ebion wrote: Sun Feb 04, 2024 3:12 pm
Vanished wrote: Sun Feb 04, 2024 10:15 am Polycarp, Ignatius, and Papias are done, but there's a long way to go.
Maybe put them up as you go along: I'd like to see them, and you may get some good feedback.

I'd love ti see the Polycarp, Ignatius, and Papias entries; maybe break them into individual posts.
At the moment, the way I've got them written down is something like this:

Ignatius:
Epistle to the Philippians:
Matthew (1:1)
Mark (1:1)
Luke (1:1)
John N/A
Romans (1:1)
and so on...

So they likely wouldn't make super interesting individual posts. I mostly wanted to make it as a shorthand resource to check whether any given book was extant and known at the time of the author writing, but as a deeper analysis I suppose I could expand the above with possible references (since so far I'm only writing down unmistakable quotes/allusions) and some interesting info I've found, such as quotes from apocryphal/deuterocanonical works or quotes from seemingly lost scriptures.
IMO, keep working on it.

If you post midway, the temptation will be to spend time engaging with all the responses, instead of continuing.
I think I'll wrap up with adding Clement's references, then move from there. After all, all of the canonical books were written before or within the lifetime of the Apostolic Fathers, even with late estimates, so that's all I should need for my purposes. I might return later and document references for other reasons.
ebion
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Re: Making sense of the Pauline Epistles

Post by ebion »

Peter Kirby wrote: Sun Feb 04, 2024 10:48 pm
Vanished wrote: Sun Feb 04, 2024 8:59 pm
ebion wrote: Sun Feb 04, 2024 3:12 pm
Vanished wrote: Sun Feb 04, 2024 10:15 am Polycarp, Ignatius, and Papias are done, but there's a long way to go.
Maybe put them up as you go along: I'd like to see them, and you may get some good feedback.
At the moment, the way I've got them written down is something like this:
IMO, keep working on it.
If you post midway, the temptation will be to spend time engaging with all the responses, instead of continuing.
True but the feedback may help you improve the quality of the following. And it may help you focus on the ones which are more certain to be authentic, if you find that some have real problems in that regard.
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Peter Kirby
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Re: Making sense of the Pauline Epistles

Post by Peter Kirby »

Vanished wrote: Thu Feb 08, 2024 7:34 pm
Peter Kirby wrote: Sun Feb 04, 2024 10:48 pm
Vanished wrote: Sun Feb 04, 2024 8:59 pm
ebion wrote: Sun Feb 04, 2024 3:12 pm
Vanished wrote: Sun Feb 04, 2024 10:15 am Polycarp, Ignatius, and Papias are done, but there's a long way to go.
Maybe put them up as you go along: I'd like to see them, and you may get some good feedback.

I'd love ti see the Polycarp, Ignatius, and Papias entries; maybe break them into individual posts.
At the moment, the way I've got them written down is something like this:

Ignatius:
Epistle to the Philippians:
Matthew (1:1)
Mark (1:1)
Luke (1:1)
John N/A
Romans (1:1)
and so on...

So they likely wouldn't make super interesting individual posts. I mostly wanted to make it as a shorthand resource to check whether any given book was extant and known at the time of the author writing, but as a deeper analysis I suppose I could expand the above with possible references (since so far I'm only writing down unmistakable quotes/allusions) and some interesting info I've found, such as quotes from apocryphal/deuterocanonical works or quotes from seemingly lost scriptures.
IMO, keep working on it.

If you post midway, the temptation will be to spend time engaging with all the responses, instead of continuing.
I think I'll wrap up with adding Clement's references, then move from there. After all, all of the canonical books were written before or within the lifetime of the Apostolic Fathers, even with late estimates, so that's all I should need for my purposes. I might return later and document references for other reasons.
This search tool might help: https://www.biblindex.org/citation_biblique/?lang=en
Vanished
Posts: 24
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2024 5:33 pm

Re: Making sense of the Pauline Epistles

Post by Vanished »

ebion wrote: Sun Feb 04, 2024 3:12 pm
Vanished wrote: Sun Feb 04, 2024 10:15 am Polycarp, Ignatius, and Papias are done, but there's a long way to go.
Maybe put them up as you go along: I'd like to see them, and you may get some good feedback.

I'd love ti see the Polycarp, Ignatius, and Papias entries; maybe break them into individual posts.
Peter Kirby wrote: Fri Feb 09, 2024 10:39 am
Vanished wrote: Thu Feb 08, 2024 7:34 pm
Peter Kirby wrote: Sun Feb 04, 2024 10:48 pm
Vanished wrote: Sun Feb 04, 2024 8:59 pm
ebion wrote: Sun Feb 04, 2024 3:12 pm
Maybe put them up as you go along: I'd like to see them, and you may get some good feedback.

I'd love ti see the Polycarp, Ignatius, and Papias entries; maybe break them into individual posts.
At the moment, the way I've got them written down is something like this:

Ignatius:
Epistle to the Philippians:
Matthew (1:1)
Mark (1:1)
Luke (1:1)
John N/A
Romans (1:1)
and so on...

So they likely wouldn't make super interesting individual posts. I mostly wanted to make it as a shorthand resource to check whether any given book was extant and known at the time of the author writing, but as a deeper analysis I suppose I could expand the above with possible references (since so far I'm only writing down unmistakable quotes/allusions) and some interesting info I've found, such as quotes from apocryphal/deuterocanonical works or quotes from seemingly lost scriptures.
IMO, keep working on it.

If you post midway, the temptation will be to spend time engaging with all the responses, instead of continuing.
I think I'll wrap up with adding Clement's references, then move from there. After all, all of the canonical books were written before or within the lifetime of the Apostolic Fathers, even with late estimates, so that's all I should need for my purposes. I might return later and document references for other reasons.
This search tool might help: https://www.biblindex.org/citation_biblique/?lang=en
Thanks so much! I used that when researching 1 and 2 Clement, made things a lot easier. It's not a perfect resource seeing as some citations were missing and some dubious citations were included, but it certainly is a great start and I'll be sure to use it more in the future when needed :)

I've started a new thread with the info I've found from this research, if you're interested: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=11498

I'm going to bed now.
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