Vaticanus is a multi-quire codex, so the "missing pages" have an unclear extent.
More relevant is P46, which is a single quire codex, with about six missing pages of Romans, containing Pauline epistles + Hebrews, where the last extant text is 1 Thessalonians.
There's enough room in this single quire to accommodate 2 Thessalonians, maybe Philemon.
The economical hypothesis is that P46 did not have 1 Timothy, 2 Timothy, and Titus. However, some might suppose that the codex also had additional quires beside the one that is in evidence.
Making sense of the Pauline Epistles
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Re: Making sense of the Pauline Epistles
Marcion's Faulines didn't have 1 Timothy, 2 Timothy, and Titus. You point out that P46, which I gather is seen as the oldest extant manuscript, doesn't have 1 Timothy, 2 Timothy, and Titus. I don't know them well, but they seem to me different theologically to the "hauptbriefe".Peter Kirby wrote: ↑Sat Mar 02, 2024 6:19 pm Vaticanus is a multi-quire codex, so the "missing pages" have an unclear extent.
...
The economical hypothesis is that P46 did not have 1 Timothy, 2 Timothy, and Titus. However, some might suppose that the codex also had additional quires beside the one that is in evidence.
Are there many people that conjecture, or try to demonstrate. that these 3 are later than Marcion (138-144) and are later compositions perhaps by a different author(s), rather than just ignored or overlooked or omitted in the earlier work?
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Re: Making sense of the Pauline Epistles
I am led to understand that some do think that the pastoral epistles are (partly) anti-Marcionite and thus in some way post-Marcionite, not ignored or overlooked by Marcion.ebion wrote: ↑Sun Mar 03, 2024 5:38 pmMarcion's Faulines didn't have 1 Timothy, 2 Timothy, and Titus. You point out that P46, which I gather is seen as the oldest extant manuscript, doesn't have 1 Timothy, 2 Timothy, and Titus. I don't know them well, but they seem to me different theologically to the "hauptbriefe".Peter Kirby wrote: ↑Sat Mar 02, 2024 6:19 pm Vaticanus is a multi-quire codex, so the "missing pages" have an unclear extent.
...
The economical hypothesis is that P46 did not have 1 Timothy, 2 Timothy, and Titus. However, some might suppose that the codex also had additional quires beside the one that is in evidence.
Are there many people that conjecture, or try to demonstrate. that these 3 are later than Marcion (138-144) and are later compositions perhaps by a different author(s), rather than just ignored or overlooked or omitted in the earlier work?
Re: Making sense of the Pauline Epistles
That's the way they feel to me, so I'll characterize them as (partly) anti-Marcionite and thus post-Marcion. Thanks - I'll keep my eye out for citations that support this view.Peter Kirby wrote: ↑Sun Mar 03, 2024 5:55 pm I am led to understand that some do think that the pastoral epistles are (partly) anti-Marcionite and thus in some way post-Marcionite, not ignored or overlooked by Marcion.
Last edited by ebion on Mon Mar 04, 2024 3:05 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Making sense of the Pauline Epistles
The reference to drinking alcohol (moderately) and gnosis falsely so-called are a couple common citations here.
Re: Making sense of the Pauline Epistles
How are those anti-Marcionite?Peter Kirby wrote: ↑Sun Mar 03, 2024 9:35 pm The reference to drinking alcohol (moderately) and gnosis falsely so-called are a couple common citations here.
What citations would you quote to support "(partly) anti-Marcionite"?
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Re: Making sense of the Pauline Epistles
Genuine question or an invitation to argument?ebion wrote: ↑Mon Mar 04, 2024 3:57 amHow are those anti-Marcionite?Peter Kirby wrote: ↑Sun Mar 03, 2024 9:35 pm The reference to drinking alcohol (moderately) and gnosis falsely so-called are a couple common citations here.
Marcionites are said to have forbade alcohol.
Re: Making sense of the Pauline Epistles
"(2) Assume Good Faith."
"Are said to have" - citation? That's very weak to me because 1Tim says drink for infirmities:
and otherwise repeatedly emphasises sobriety: 1Tim 3:2, 1Tim 3:11, Titus 1:8, Titus 2:2, Titus 2:4, Titus 2:6. I see nothing particularly anti-Marcion; if anything parts remind me of the Didache.Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach’s sake and thine often infirmities. (I Timothy 5:23 [KJV])
What I do see is the invoking of Jesus' name all through 1Tim and 2Tim and Titus (30 times), something the Faulines practically never do, so they are un-Fauline to me. I don't however see much citation of, or teaching from, the synoptics, unlike for example the Gospels of Thomas or Philip; as Albert Schweitzer pointed out:
So I don't see the Tims and Titus as particularly teaching what Christ taught - they're just the authors' (not Paul/Faul) take on Christianity.Where possible, he (Paul) avoids quoting the teaching of Jesus, in fact even mentioning it. If we had to rely on Paul, we should not know that Jesus taught in parables, had delivered the sermon on the mount, and had taught His disciples the `Our Father.' Even where they are specially relevant, Paul passes over the words of the Lord.
Indeed, with the sole exception of the eucharistic formula at 1 Cor 11:24-25, Paul does not quote any sayings of the historical Jesus as found in the written Gospels. Furthermore, Paul never even once alludes to the panorama of the Savior's life story from the Nativity up to the Passion, as well as Jesus's elaborate teaching, which fill the pages of the first four books of the New Testament.
Last edited by ebion on Mon Mar 04, 2024 8:13 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Making sense of the Pauline Epistles
That's enough to answer my question. I am not looking to argue the point. I was offering references if you were unfamiliar with them. You can investigate it further yourself.ebion wrote: ↑Mon Mar 04, 2024 11:46 am"(2) Assume Good Faith."
"Are said to have" - citation? That's very weak to me because 1Tim says drink for infirmities:and otherwise repeatedly emphasises sobriety: 1Tim 3:2, 1Tim 3:11, Titus 1:8, Titus 2:2, Titus 2:4, Titus 2:6. I see nothing particularly anti-Marcion; if anything parts remind me of the Didache.Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach’s sake and thine often infirmities. (I Timothy 5:23 [KJV])
What I do see is the invoking of Jesus' name all through 1Tim and 2Tim and Titus, something the Faulines practically never do, so they are un-Fauline to me. I don't however see much citation of, or teaching ftom, the synoptics, unlike for example the Gospels of Thomas or Philip, so I don't see them as teaching what Christ taught
Re: Making sense of the Pauline Epistles
Although scholars today do not generally associate Marcion with a Gnostic movement, it seems fair to presume that this was not the prevailing opinion of the proto-Orthodox.