Paul as a Herodian?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
ebion
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Re: I'll be reading the Gospels of Thomas, Philip and Truth for the rest of my life.

Post by ebion »

You seem so keen to sell them to someone interested in the early Christian canon on the D$$. Disclaimer: because of their longtime pushing of the Essene Community fraud, if the forum allows users to have a signature: mine will be "BDS the DSS".
Peter Kirby wrote: Sun Jan 28, 2024 8:08 pm Isn't there a real danger that the texts you're not studying could be closer to what you're interested in?
None whatsoever. I read what I was interested in the D$$ over a generation ago, back when I fell for their fraud, except for the Habakkuk pesher and that didn't take very long (it's < 200 lines). There are 2 videos on YewTube by Doug del Tondo where he reviews the Habukkuk Pesher and Eisenman's theories, although I remain not convinced: In contrast, I'll be reading, and teaching, the Gospels of Thomas, Philip and Truth from the NHL for the rest of my life.
Last edited by ebion on Fri Feb 02, 2024 9:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Peter Kirby
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Re: I'll be reading the Gospels of Thomas, Philip and Truth for the rest of my life.

Post by Peter Kirby »

ebion wrote: Fri Feb 02, 2024 6:36 am You seem so keen to sell them to someone interested in the early Christian canon on the D$$.
I didn't sell anything. I asked a couple questions. It's your business. You don't even have to answer them.
StephenGoranson
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Re: Paul as a Herodian?

Post by StephenGoranson »

Though I was not the first to propose it (it appears in scholarship at least as early as 1532), the name Essenes goes back through several Greek spellings to the Hebrew root 'asah.
And some Dead Sea Scrolls include, in Hebrew, the self-designation 'osey ha-Torah, observers of Torah.
Of course, Pharisees and Sadducees did not accept that name.

Among publications on this:
"Others and Intra-Jewish Polemic as Reflected in Qumran Texts"
https://people.duke.edu/~goranson/Essenes_&_Others.pdf
ebion
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Re: I'll be reading the Gospels of Thomas, Philip and Truth for the rest of my life.

Post by ebion »

Peter Kirby wrote: Fri Feb 02, 2024 6:43 am
ebion wrote: Fri Feb 02, 2024 6:36 am You seem so keen to sell them to someone interested in the early Christian canon on the D$$.
I didn't sell anything. I asked a couple questions. It's your business. You don't even have to answer them.
My apologies: I just didn't see the relevance of the DSS to Christian canon, other than Eisenman's thesis.
I don't see what he does in the Habukkuk pesher, but I agree with what he concludes from the Clementine/Travels of Peter/Ascent of James literature.
StephenGoranson
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Re: Paul as a Herodian?

Post by StephenGoranson »

The Scrolls tell us something about subsets of Judaism at the time when Christianity began.
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DCHindley
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Re: Paul as a Herodian?

Post by DCHindley »

StephenGoranson wrote: Fri Feb 02, 2024 6:54 am Though I was not the first to propose it (it appears in scholarship at least as early as 1532), the name Essenes goes back through several Greek spellings to the Hebrew root 'asah.
And some Dead Sea Scrolls include, in Hebrew, the self-designation 'osey ha-Torah, observers of Torah.
Of course, Pharisees and Sadducees did not accept that name.

Among publications on this:
"Others and Intra-Jewish Polemic as Reflected in Qumran Texts"
https://people.duke.edu/~goranson/Essenes_&_Others.pdf
IIRC, the Assumption of Moses has a story of a man named "Taxo" who hides in a cave with his sons to avoid the polluted world of Hasmonean princes.

Hugh Schonfield, in Essene Odyssey, had indicated that he once solved this TAXO cypher using atbash, as "Asaph," a well known biblical figure and probably a fairly common name. This may have first been proposed in Those Inedible (OK, Incredible) Christians from waaay back.
John2
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Re: Paul as a Herodian?

Post by John2 »

I used to really care about the idea that Paul was a Herodian, but not anymore. I don't see how it would change anything if he was. Herod's family converted to Judaism and that made them Jewish, and if Paul was part of that family, then he was Jewish too.

Herod's Jewishness only becomes "complicated" (as this article concludes: https://www.thetorah.com/article/how-jewish-was-herod) if you make it so. And even if you make it complicated, Herod still sounds "Jewish enough" to me, and the article notes evidence for Herodian observance of kashrut and ritual purity. For example:

The King of Judea and his revered guests enjoyed delicacies such as Italian apples and Spanish garum, which is a fermented fish sauce used as a condiment. Scientists who studied these containers of garum determined that Herod’s was an unusual blend, containing only kosher fish, in contrast to the usual recipe. This shows that the people exporting garum to Herod knew about this Jewish prohibition and assumed (or were told explicitly) that Herod followed it, and that he was willing to pay extra for this.



Herodians may not have been "Jewish enough" for some, but they were for others (and to me). M. Sot. 7:8 is a good example of this.

King Agrippa stood and received it [the Torah] and read standing, and the sages praised him. When he reached, “You shall not place a foreigner over you” his eyes ran with tears. They said to him, “Fear not, Agrippas, you are our brother, you are our brother!


https://www.sefaria.org/English_Explana ... l&lang2=en

As noted in the link about this passage:

Some commentators say that the sages just said this to make him feel better, while others say that since his mother is an Israelite, he is indeed a legitimate king.
So was Paul "Jewish enough" (assuming he was a Herodian)? I don't see why not. Is it a "complicated" issue? Not to me.
ebion
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Re: Caesar extended to him and his sons both Roman citizenship and...

Post by ebion »

Upthread we asked:
ebion wrote: Fri Jan 26, 2024 8:12 pm Wow! Herod's Roman citizenship came from Julius Caesar, and it was extended only to his family, so Paul is a member of Herod's immediate family

Which made us ask: do we have any idea, even speculation, of who was the mother of Paul?

Now we ask: is Paul a son of Herod by his first wife Phasaelis?
Paul had Roman citizenship: this is extremely unusual, and was granted by Caesar to Herod and his sons:
He supported the returned Cleopatra, who became his mistress, and ultimately he placed her alone on Egypt’s throne. Besieged by Ptolemy’s army, Caesar required immediate aid in the form of troops from Rome’s client rulers in surrounding territories. Hyrcanus and Antipater were fast to respond and accompanied Roman legions from Syria to effect the relief of Caesar at Alexandria. Their loyalty was well rewarded by Caesar, who increased the territory under Hyrcanus’s control, confirmed Antipater as chief minister of Judea, and extended to him and his sons both Roman citizenship and the lucrative tax collection franchise for Judea. Moreover, as undisputed master of Rome, Caesar promulgated laws to protect the religious freedom of Jews throughout the empire, extending to the Jews an unprecedented grant of special privileges.9
StephenGoranson
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Re: Paul as a Herodian?

Post by StephenGoranson »

ebion wrote: ↑Fri Jan 26, 2024 8:12 pm and Sat Feb 10, 2024 12:13 pm, partly underlined:
"Wow! Herod's Roman citizenship came from Julius Caesar, and it was extended only to his family, so Paul is a member of Herod's immediate family."

That is a non-sequitur.
There were other ways to become a Roman citizen.
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