minor spellings aside, any proposed cult of "Jesus the Good" evidence?

[StephenGoranson]

The spellings offered are minor.
A proposal, based largely on false dating of Coptic Thomas impossibly early--that is, before Coptic is ever attested--leave the question whether there is evidence at all of two separate and uni-directional-sequenced and both "misunderstood" sequential religions.
Admittedly, Sophia has been personified as wisdom, but is that the closest putative analogy on offer?

[davidmartin]

The spellings offered are minor.
A proposal, based largely on false dating of Coptic Thomas impossibly early--that is, before Coptic is ever attested--leave the question whether there is evidence at all of two separate and uni-directional-sequenced and both "misunderstood" sequential religions.
Admittedly, Sophia has been personified as wisdom, but is that the closest putative analogy on offer?

well, there's evidence of many sects (or religions) following on from each other, Irenaeus and Celsus don't go fishing, they write essays on the subject
Marcion seems all about 'the good' in a way that seems to line up?
For Thomas dating, maybe so but before Coptic it would have been in Demotic surely, I mean I wonder about the nomina sacra... most people read out loud to themselves and often an audience - what the heck they supposed to even say when they hit one, how'd they know?!

[StephenGoranson]

No.

Any actual evidence or specific examples, whether from Irenaeus or Celsus or Marcion, or anywhere else
to prove
from a putative "Jesus the Good" religion
to a putative Jesus the Messiah religion?

[Kunigunde Kreuzerin]

The spellings offered are minor.
A proposal, based largely on false dating of Coptic Thomas impossibly early--that is, before Coptic is ever attested--leave the question whether there is evidence at all of two separate and uni-directional-sequenced and both "misunderstood" sequential religions.
Admittedly, Sophia has been personified as wisdom, but is that the closest putative analogy on offer?

At least it shouldn't be exaggerated to assume that outsiders might have used the term as a satirical pun to make fun of the movement's self-righteousness (Christos = Chrestos = do-gooder). Perhaps some Christians have adopted this in a positive sense. That would be a sober explanation

[davidmartin]

so you want a time machine, tried Amazon?

I mean, you could theorise a Marcionite type group would invariably prefer 'the good' Jesus if it's true they had that as the main attribute for their Father, then if you added to that the theory Luke derives from *ev you'd get a progression. I don't know, i'm kind of doubting it's that straightforward in some ways but patterns should be explored

[StephenGoranson]

Do whatever you want
show me evidence
if any
for a ""Jesus the Good"
--prior--
religion.

[davidmartin]

Marcion

[StephenGoranson]

"Marcion"--
less than a specific argument for a "Jesus the Good"
proposed religion
before a
"Jesus Christ" religion
imo

[davidmartin]

i defer, i'd like to see someone with more expertise on the Marcionites comment here. not really my area i just can't get the enthusiasm going to trawl through all those patristic accounts and get 'good' at it

[Kunigunde Kreuzerin]

I mean, you could theorise a Marcionite type group would invariably prefer 'the good' Jesus if it's true they had that as the main attribute for their Father, then if you added to that the theory Luke derives from *ev you'd get a progression.

imho if this were the case, one would expect Marcion's Gospel to be about the difference between a Jewish Christ and the Marcionite Chrestos. But just like in GLuke (and the other synoptics), GMarcion - as far as attested - is about the question of the suffering of the "Chr".

Luke 9.18-27, who do you say that I am, the first passion prediction, take up your cross, finding and losing, before my father.

18 Καὶ ἐγένετο ἐν τῷ εἶναι αὐτὸν προσευχόμενον κατὰ μόνας συνῆσαν αὐτῷ οἱ μαθηταί, καὶ ἐπηρώτησεν αὐτοὺς λέγων Τίνα με οἱ ὄχλοι [Marcion: οἱ ἄνθρωποι] λέγουσιν, τὸν υἱὸν τοῦ ἀνθρώπου, εἶναι; 19 οἱ δὲ ἀποκριθέντες εἶπαν Ἰωάνην τὸν Βαπτιστήν, ἄλλοι δὲ Ἡλείαν, ἄλλοι δὲ ὅτι προφήτης τις τῶν ἀρχαίων ἀνέστη. 20 εἶπεν δὲ αὐτοῖς Ὑμεῖς δὲ τίνα με λέγετε εἶναι; Πέτρος δὲ ἀποκριθεὶς εἶπεν Τὸν Χριστὸν τοῦ Θεοῦ [Marcion: σὺ εἶ ὁ Χριστός]. 21 ὁ δὲ ἐπιτιμήσας αὐτοῖς παρήγγειλεν μηδενὶ λέγειν τοῦτο, 22 εἰπὼν ὅτι Δεῖ τὸν Υἱὸν τοῦ ἀνθρώπου πολλὰ παθεῖν καὶ ἀποδοκιμασθῆναι ἀπὸ τῶν πρεσβυτέρων καὶ ἀρχιερέων καὶ γραμματέων καὶ ἀποκτανθῆναι καὶ τῇ τρίτῃ ἡμέρᾳ [Marcion: μετὰ τρεῖς ἡμέρας] ἐγερθῆναι.

18 As he was praying alone, the disciples were with him, and he asked them, “Who do the multitudes [Marcion: men] say that I, the son of man, am?” 19 They answered, “‘John the Baptizer,’ but others say, ‘Elijah,’ and others, that one of the old prophets has risen again.” 20 He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” Peter answered, “The Christ of God [Marcion: you are the Christ].” 21 But he warned them, and commanded them to tell this to no one, 22 saying, “The Son of Man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders, chief priests, and scribes, and be killed [or: crucified], and the third day [Marcion: after three days] be raised up.”

Luke 24.13-35, the appearance on the road.

25 καὶ αὐτὸς εἶπεν πρὸς αὐτούς Ὦ ἀνόητοι καὶ βραδεῖς τῇ καρδίᾳ τοῦ πιστεύειν ἐπὶ πᾶσιν οἷς ἐλάλησαν [Marcion: ἐλάληθη πρὸς ὑμᾶς] οἱ προφῆται· 26 οὐχὶ ταῦτα ἔδει παθεῖν τὸν Χριστὸν καὶ εἰσελθεῖν εἰς τὴν δόξαν αὐτοῦ;

25 He said to them, “Foolish men, and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken [Marcion: was spoken to you]! 26 Didn’t the Christ have to suffer these things and to enter into his glory?”