Bermejo-Rubio and the Titulus Crucis ("King of the Jews")

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andrewcriddle
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Re: Bermejo-Rubio and the Titulus Crucis ("King of the Jews")

Post by andrewcriddle »

Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote: Wed Feb 14, 2024 12:57 pm
Giuseppe wrote: Tue Feb 13, 2024 9:42 pmI see that BR is well ready to sacrifice a lot of episodes on the altar of the purely midrashical origin. But what he doesn't sacrifice are, in the order of importance:
  • 3) the titulus crucis
Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote: Tue Feb 06, 2024 6:10 am google-translation
A third relevant aspect is related to the titulus crucis, the tablet that specifies the reason for the sentence. In the canonical gospels there are four different formulations of the title, although all of them have as their common denominator the core βασιλεὺς τῶν ’Ιουδαίων. Now, what can we say about the historicity of the titulus? Some authors have denied it, citing as the main reason that the practice of fixing a tablet on the cross of the condemned is not, strictly speaking, attested outside the gospels. Although there are reports of the existence of criminal charges in explanatory tabellae, contrary to what is sometimes assumed this does not seem to have been a systematic practice in the Roman Empire, and in fact there are no further testimonies about tablets nailed to crosses, but only of tablets that precede the prisoner taken to the place of execution. Now, to this it can be answered, on the one hand, that in Mark's account it is not expressly said that the inscription is fixed to the cross; This being so, and as has been pointed out, at least one parallel can be adduced. On the other hand, the fact that descriptions of the crucifixion are relatively scarce in the Roman world may make the absence of parallels hardly significant, all the more so since it seems reasonable to assume that if the cause was deployed before the execution it would continue to be so. next to the condemned during the execution itself.
Before I continue, let me quote the three cases in context.

Sueton, De vita Caesarum, Caligula 32 Sueton, De vita Caesarum, Domitian 10 Cassius Dio, Roman History, 54.3
1 His acts and words were equally cruel, even when he was indulging in relaxation and given up to amusement and feasting. While he was lunching or revelling capital examinations by torture were often made in his presence, and a soldier who was adept at decapitation cut off the heads of those who were brought from prison. At Puteoli, at the dedication of the bridge that he contrived, as has been said, after inviting a number to come to him from the shore, on a sudden he had them all thrown overboard; and when some caught hold of the rudders of the ships, he pushed them off into the sea with boathooks and oars. 2 At a public banquet in Rome he immediately handed a slave over to the executioners for stealing a strip of silver from the couches, with orders that his hands be cut off and hung from his neck upon his breast, and that he then be led about among the guests, preceded by a placard giving the reason for his punishment (titulo qui causam poenae indicaret). 1 But he did not continue this course of mercy or integrity, although he turned to cruelty somewhat more speedily than to avarice. He put to death a pupil of the pantomimic actor Paris, who was still a beardless boy and ill at the time, because in his skill and his appearance he seemed not unlike his master; also Hermogenes of Tarsus because of some allusions in his History, besides crucifying even the slaves who had written it out. A householder who said that a Thracian gladiator was a match for the murmillo, but not for the giver of the games, he caused to be dragged from his seat and thrown into the arena to dogs, with this placard (titulo): "A favourer of the Thracians who spoke impiously." ("Impie locutus parmularius.") 4 … and others formed a plot against Augustus. Fannius Caepio was the instigator of it, but others also joined with him … 7 at any rate, when Caepio's father freed one of the two slaves who had accompanied his son in his flight because this slave had wished to defend his young master when he met with death, but in the case of the second slave, who had deserted his son, led him through the midst of the Forum with an inscription making known the reason why he was to be put to death (γραμμάτων τὴν αἰτίαν τῆς θανατώσεως), and afterwards crucified him, the emperor was not vexed.

It seems that Bermejo-Rubio is essentially correct. But I noticed the following things.

- No case is a really good parallel. The first two cases of Suetonius are the violent excesses of a ruler and the case of Cassius Dio is the private execution of a slave.

- In Cassius Dio's case, the emphasis is on the inscription being carried through the forum; it no longer plays a role at the crucifixion. Cassius Dio seems to suggest that the whole thing is a message from Caepio's father to the Emperor.

- The inscription seems to be something special for Suetonius and Cassius Dio, as if it were rare.

- My impression was correct that the usual translations ("inscription of the charge") of Mark's text are not good. Suetonius and Cassius Dio use the term "inscription -> of the reason -> for his punishment/killing. The last part is missing from Mark, it only says "inscription -> of the reason of him".

- The words of the inscription are mentioned only in the second case. What is mentioned there is the crime (impietās - impiety) as such, not what the householder said.

It seems likely in principle that a public execution would include some public explanation of the reason why the culprit was being executed.
I'm reluctant to use the Historia Augusta as a source but the life of Alexander Severus has
5 There were certain men that he always refused to see alone in the afternoon or, for that matter, in the morning hours, because he found out that they had said many things about him falsely, and chief among them was Verconius Turinus. 6 For Turinus had been treated by him as an intimate friend, and all the while he had sold favours under false pretences, with the result that he brought Alexander's rule into disrepute, for he made the Emperor seem a mere fool whom he, Turinus, had completely in his power and could persuade to do anything; in this way he made all believe that the Emperor did everything at his beck and call. 36 1 He was finally caught, however, by the following trick: A certain man was deputed to present a petition to the Emperor publicly, but secretly to ask Turinus, as it were for protection, namely, that he would privately plead with Alexander in his behalf. 2 All this was done, and Turinus promised him his support and later told him that he had said certain things to the Emperor (whereas in reality he had said nothing at all), and that it now depended on him alone whether or not the request would be granted; he then offered a favourable decision in return for money. And when Alexander ordered the petitioner to be summoned for a second hearing, Turinus, though apparently occupied in doing something else, signalled to the man by nodding his head, but said nothing to him in the room; then his petition was granted, and Turinus, in return for a favour sold under false pretences,​ received a huge reward from the successful petitioner. Thereupon Alexander ordered him to be indicted, and when all the charges had been proved by witnesses, of whom some were present and saw what Turinus had received and others heard what he had promised, he issued instructions to bind him to a stake in the Forum Transitorium.​ Then he ordered a fire of straw and wet logs to be made and had him suffocated by the smoke, and all the while a herald cried aloud, "The seller of smoke is punished by smoke." 3 And in order that it might not be thought that he was too cruel in thus punishing one single offence, he made a careful investigation before sentencing Turinus, and found that when selling a decision in a law-suit he had often taken money from both parties, and that he had also accepted bribes from all who had obtained appointments to commands or provinces.
This is oral not writtrn but the principle is the same.

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Re: Bermejo-Rubio and the Titulus Crucis ("King of the Jews")

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

Peter Kirby wrote: Thu Feb 15, 2024 1:36 pmJD Crossan wrote (Who Killed Jesus?, pp. 124-125):
Thanks. I've never read Crossan, but I like what he's written here. He carefully looks at the individual details and puts them in a meaningful context. His view has the advantage that you don't have to make many things up and read them into it (as BR).

Peter Kirby wrote: Thu Feb 15, 2024 1:36 pmThe interrogation and charge of being 'king of the Jews' is first introduced in a trial narrative that may not be historical. If accusation of claiming to be king of the Jews isn't historical, then the historicity of the titulus, repeating that charge, is also questionable. It might be said that they stand or fall together.
Here’s what some of those cranky German form critics and redaction critics have said (especially Ferdinand Hahn, Josef Ernst and Johannes Schreiber). I think it essentially deepens your point. I'll simplify their very complicated abstract considerations and bring them to the essential point. (They would most likely say that I'm not reproducing them properly ;) ) In order to understand their argument, one must briefly consider how the Gospel of Mark was supposed to have developed from the very first eyewitness reports.

1)
Think of it this way: followers of Jesus wondered what had happened during Pilate's interrogation. Some had contact with members of the Sanhedrin, where the chief priests had reported the interrogation. The followers then reported what they had learned to the Jerusalem community. Others were present at the events surrounding Barabbas and others were able to contact Roman soldiers and find out what had happened in the praetorium. The sons of Simon of Cyrene reported what their father had experienced on the way and at the crucifixion, but there were also other eyewitness reports. Someone had contact with Joseph of Arimathea. Last but not least Mary Magdalene broke her silence ;) . So there was a lot of little information from several people, some second or third hand. Little by little, a knowledge of the events developed that was handed down: this happened during the interrogation, that happened in the praetorium, etc.

At first these shaped oral reports contained only the bare facts. Maybe some things were a bit exaggerated, maybe some things were influenced by someone's personal perspective, maybe there was a little theological thought in it, but they were more or less „the facts“. So these little scene reports contained different informations from different people. They were passed on orally, also in other communities and other places, and perhaps changed a little here and there, especially reworked with theological motifs. In chapter 15 of GMark one can roughly distinguish between the following scene reports: the interrogation before Pilate, the Passover custom with Barabbas, the mockery by the Roman soldiers, the crucifixion and the burial.

It’s not important that this is exactly how it happened and whether this or that little story was made up altogether. It's just a matter of principle. The following therefore applies:

As soon as one can identify a specific motif that is repeated in several scene reports, one knows that this is not the oldest layer of the eyewitness reports.

It makes no difference whether or not we understand this motif and find it meaningful, whether it is theological or otherwise, and whether or not it agrees with the views of the Evangelist as the final editor. The only thing that matters is that a common motif in several scene reports proves the hand of an editor or of an author.


2)
Bermejo-Rubio correctly observed that the title “King of the Jews” is mentioned in different places in the Passion account of GMark, and that the title and the cross are associatively related to each other.
Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote: Tue Feb 06, 2024 6:10 amgoogle-translation
Furthermore, it is in the passion stories where the term "king of the Jews" has a conspicuous presence, and this in three different contexts: the interrogation of Pilate, the mockery of Jesus by the soldiers and the titulus crucis.
...
... the association of the royal title with the cross ...
But Hahn, Ernst and Schreiber discovered long before him that the mentioning of „King“ or of „Kingship“ appears not only in three places, but in all scene reports of the 15th chapter.

Interrogation before Pilate Pilate, who later sentenced Jesus to crucifixion, suddenly addresses Jesus as “King of the Jews” without any context to what has happened so far.
Passover custom with Barabbas The people, who were on Jesus' side the whole time, suddenly demand the crucifixion of the "King of the Jews", without anyone understanding the people's change of heart.
Mocking by Roman soldiers The soldiers who crucify Jesus mock him beforehand as “King of the Jews”.
Crucifixion a) There is a title of the cross “King of the Jews”.
b) The chief priests mock Jesus as “King of Israel” and demand that he may come down from the cross.
Burial Joseph of Arimathea, taking Jesus down from the cross, continues to wait for the Kingdom of God.


The only difference between these authors and Bermejo-Rubio on this point is that BR, who is only interested in the title „King of the Jews“, does not notice that there are other passages related to this topic. What is particularly striking is how strongly this "King" vocabulary comes into play in the statements of the characters in the story, although the narrator's report contains almost no additional information about it, so that we as readers cannot place these statements in a meaningful context. According to these German redaction critics, a King motif or a King-Cross-motif can be identified in all pericopes of the 15th chapter, which was inserted in the course of some revision.

From a formal point of view, the verse Mark 15:26 with the titulus represents an insertion. It is neither connected to the previous sentence nor to the following sentence, but is isolated in the plot. If you remove the verse, the report ties together seamlessly.
25 It was nine in the morning when they crucified him. 26 The written notice of the charge against him read: the King of the Jews. 27 They crucified two rebels with him, one on his right and one on his left.

It is therefore evidence that a King motif was afterwards inserted into the oldest layer of the oral reports (based on the eyewitnesses) and – according to the formal argument - most likely the titulus as well.

So if you believe that the Gospels are based on reports from eyewitnesses, then the titulus and the whole King motif in Mark 15 is most likely not historical.
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Re: Bermejo-Rubio and the Titulus Crucis ("King of the Jews")

Post by rgprice »

I don't think that eyewitness reports have anything to do with it. There is no reason to think that any part of Mark comes from eyewitnesses. Saying that, "if you believe that the Gospels are based on reports from eyewitnesses, then the titulus and the whole King motif in Mark 15 is most likely not historical," is an attempt at "heads I win tails you lose".

If the account is NOT based on eyewitnesses then of course there is no reason to conclude that the titulus is historical, but then you argue that if it IS based on eyewitnesses then its also not historical.

Now, I agree that its not historical, but not for these reasons.

Note that the "kingdom of God" is mentioned throughout Mark, from beginning to end.

I think clearly the writer is making a statement about Jesus being a different kind of king. The king motif is about misunderstanding, and not recognizing who Jesus is. He was not "king of the Jews". He was the anointed of the "kingdom of God".

Psalm 80:
Watch over this vine,
15 the root your right hand has planted,
the branch you have raised up for yourself.


16 Your vine is cut down, it is burned with fire;
at your rebuke your people perish.

17 Let your hand rest on the man at your right hand,
the son of man you have raised up for yourself
.
18 Then we will not turn away from you;
revive us, and we will call on your name.

19 Restore us, Lord God Almighty;
make your face shine on us,
that we may be saved.


1 Cor 2: 8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

From beginning to end the Gospel of Mark is about identity. The misidentification of Jesus is a core literary device of the writer.
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Re: Bermejo-Rubio and the Titulus Crucis ("King of the Jews")

Post by rgprice »

Furthermore, how do we know that there were no historical accounts of the crucifixion of Jesus? It is quite simple. Every single account of the Crucifixion includes clearly fabricated details.

Every account, canonical and noncanonical, includes the verse about, "Dividing up his clothes, they cast lots to see what each would get."

This comes from Psalm 22. The fact that every single account of the crucifixion includes this detail means that every single account stems from one single source, and that no one single writer after the writer of the first source had any knowledge of any eyewitness accounts. If anyone did possess eyewitness knowledge they would have known that this didn't happen and would not have included it in their account. So we know for sure that every account of the crucifixion is derived from one original narrative.

And we know that that original narrative is invented based on scriptural references. If there were in fact ANY eyewitness accounts of this event to be had, then the only way they could possibly be incorporated into the narrative would be if the writer of the first original narrative incorporated eyewitness details alongside his fabricated details, AND THEN all knowledge of the real event were entirely lost!

If ANY later writer had knowledge that came from eyewitness accounts instead of the invented narrative, those writers would have known that many details from the invented narrative were not true and would not have included them. The fact that everyone includes the fabricated details means that no one has eyewitness knowledge. Indeed, far from anyone trying to "set the record straight" with a sober account, everyone piles on with more prophecy fulfillment, signs and wonders...
Last edited by rgprice on Fri Feb 16, 2024 1:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Giuseppe
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Re: Bermejo-Rubio and the Titulus Crucis ("King of the Jews")

Post by Giuseppe »

Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote: Fri Feb 16, 2024 3:21 am the mentioning of „King“ or of „Kingship“ appears not only in three places, but in all scene reports of the 15th chapter.

Interrogation before Pilate Pilate, who later sentenced Jesus to crucifixion, suddenly addresses Jesus as “King of the Jews” without any context to what has happened so far.
Passover custom with Barabbas The people, who were on Jesus' side the whole time, suddenly demand the crucifixion of the "King of the Jews", without anyone understanding the people's change of heart.
Mocking by Roman soldiers The soldiers who crucify Jesus mock him beforehand as “King of the Jews”.
Crucifixion a) There is a title of the cross “King of the Jews”.
b) The chief priests mock Jesus as “King of Israel” and demand that he may come down from the cross.
Burial Joseph of Arimathea, taking Jesus down from the cross, continues to wait for the Kingdom of God.

I meant that pattern when I have written "obsessive insistence in the Passion story that the victim is the Jewish Messiah and not the Jesus Son of Unknown Father" ("Bar-Abbas").

Curiously, you had read in past this article of Couchoud/Stahl but without commenting further on it.
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Re: Bermejo-Rubio and the Titulus Crucis ("King of the Jews")

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

andrewcriddle wrote: Fri Feb 16, 2024 2:35 amIt seems likely in principle that a public execution would include some public explanation of the reason why the culprit was being executed.
...
This is oral not writtrn but the principle is the same.
Thanks Andrew. I think this case is a pretty good parallel.
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Re: Bermejo-Rubio and the Titulus Crucis ("King of the Jews")

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

rgprice wrote: Fri Feb 16, 2024 4:07 am I don't think that eyewitness reports have anything to do with it. There is no reason to think that any part of Mark comes from eyewitnesses. Saying that, "if you believe that the Gospels are based on reports from eyewitnesses, then the titulus and the whole King motif in Mark 15 is most likely not historical," is an attempt at "heads I win tails you lose".
Chill out. We do HJ scholarship here and it's a lot of fun :D
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Re: Bermejo-Rubio and the Titulus Crucis ("King of the Jews")

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

Giuseppe wrote: Fri Feb 16, 2024 5:39 amCuriously, you had read in past this article of Couchoud/Stahl but without commenting further on it.
The article says that it was actually not Jesus who was crucified, but Simon of Cyrene, or wait, but Barabbas. Furthermore, Barabbas was not Barabbas at all, but the son of the unknown god.

I know you like that kind of thing, but it's way too twisted for me. This is the moment when I need a break
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Rex Complex

Post by JoeWallack »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAA-G947ofg

JW:
Seems like everyone here and those being referred to are assuming that "Mark's" "King of The Jews" was the charge against Jesus per the narrative.
Yes, that is exactly what I think "Mark" intended. Jesus is "guilty" of being "The King of The Jews" (I'm starting to run out of scare quotes). At the Reader level this is a theological statement and at the narrative level an ironic one as the Judge and witnesses explicitly refer to him as King of the Jews even though the implication is that they did not think he was KIng of the Jews:
  • Judge = Main purpose of trial is to obtain evidence from Jesus that he claimed to be King of the Jews. Jesus never says that. Jesus then convicted of something he never said.

    Witnesses = Correctly claimed that Jesus was King of the Jews but (in typical Markan fashion) for the wrong reason.
Ironically, I think this is where the history is. Jesus never claimed to be King of the Jews. Subsequent Christians read it somewhere (they wrote it down and then read it).

As far as the historicity of "The King of the Jews" sign, this sounds like apologetics to me. This statement is a simple positive. You would not know that there was a negative meaning to it. The closest you can get is:

Jesus was acting as King of the Jews but acting as a King of the Jews was illegal under Roman occupation. The first part requires the following negative part. The attempted examples of inscriptions all have the necessary adjectives (falsely, impilately). The inscription as is only makes sense if you are a Reader (understand dear reader) and not a supposed historical observer:

We had a King?

He was the King?

Is this sarcastic?

I can't read, what does it say?


In the big picture GMark, as always, reminds me of Oedipus Rex here. The King is not recognized and is killed by his own. The city suffers as a result. Nothing anyone, especially the subject can do about it, because it is all God's will/fate. See:

Wrestling With Greco-Roman Bio. Is GMark Greek Tragedy?


Joseph

The New Porphyry
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