we shall be called with-Chrēstoi and Chrēstians in X

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we shall be called with-Chrēstoi and Chrēstians in X

Post by Peter Kirby »

What's your best explanation of this letter? Let me know what you think.

It certainly makes me curious.

Summary:
...[τῶν ἀδελφῶ]ν̣ ἐ̣ν̣ Χ(ρ*στ)ῷ...
...ἐν κ(υρί)ῳ Χ(ρ*στ)ῷ...
τοῦτο δὲ ποιοῦντες Χρηστιανοὶ κληθή[σο]μ̣εν̣ ἐν Χ(ρ*στ)ῷ.
...ἡ σωτηρία ἡμῶν Χ(ρ*στ)ω...
τοῦτο δὲ ποιο̣ῦντ̣ε̣ς συνχρηστοὶ κληθήσομεν.

p.lond.6.1919 = HGV P.Lond. 6 1919 = Trismegistos 16857 (ca. 330 - 340)

τῷ κυρίῳ κ]α̣ὶ̣ ἀδελφῷ ἡμῶν
[ ̣ ̣ ̣ ̣ ̣ ̣ ̣ ἄπα] Π̣α̣ι̣η̣ο̣ῦτι Πέννης
[ἐν κ(υρί)ῳ πλεῖστ]α̣ χαίρειν.
[πρὸ μὲν πάντων] ε̣ὔ̣[χομ]α̣ι̣ τῷ κυρίῳ θ(ε)ῷ
5[- ca.12 -] ̣τ̣ ̣ ἀγ̣[α]γ̣ώντων(*) σὺν
[- ca.11 -] ̣[ ̣ ̣ ̣] τ̣ῶ̣ ἔχοντι πάν-
[τα ̣ ̣ ̣ ̣ ̣ἀδελ(?)]φ̣ῶ̣ν̣ συνπωνούντων(*)
[- ca.11 -] δ̣ιάθεσιν τὴν ἀδελφῷ
[- ca.11 -]σ̣ε μάλλιστ̣α̣(*) ὅτι σὺν θ(ε)ῷ
10[- ca.11 -]υασ̣μ̣ε̣ ̣ ̣[ ̣] ἀλλήλων τὴν
[- ca.11 - τ]ὴν ἐν ἡμ̣εῖν(*) προοδεύουσαν
[- ca.11 - τ]α̣ύ̣τ̣ην. εὔχο̣μ̣α̣ι οὖν τῷ ἀει-
[μνήστῳ θ(ε)ῷ π]άσαις ὥραις περὶ σοῦ καὶ περὶ
[τῶν ἀδελφῶ]ν̣ ἐ̣ν̣ Χ(ριστ)ῷ· καὶ γὰρ προσῆκόν
15ἐ̣σ̣τ̣ι̣ν̣ ἀλλήλ[ων μι]μ̣ν̣ή̣σ̣κ̣εσ̣θαι ἐν κ(υρί)ῳ Χ(ριστ)ῷ διὰ
τὴν ἑκατέρων̣ ὑ̣γ̣ε̣ί̣ε̣ιαν(*)· τοῦτο δὲ ποιοῦντες
Χρηστιανοὶ(*) κληθή[σο]μ̣εν̣ ἐν Χ(ριστ)ῷ. τοῦτο δὲ
ἐν στέρνοις ἔχω ὅτι κὰ̣̓̀ν(*) με̣ε̣θα(*) μακρὰν
ἀλλήλων ἐν τῇ πίστει τοῦ ἀειμνήστου θ(εο)ῦ
20καὶ σωτῆρος ἡμῶν ̣ι̣ ̣ ̣ ̣α̣μ̣ε̣ν̣ κ[αὶ] ἐ̣π̣ʼ αὐτόν
r,2

ἐστιν ἡ σωτηρία ἡμῶν Χω(*) δυνάμει ὀντα(*) σὺν τοῖς
πράτ’τουσι τὴν α̣[ὐ]τ̣οῦ μεγάλην δύναμιν καὶ συν-
εσχηκοτες(*) τ̣ὴ̣[ν] πρ[ο]σ̣ηγορείαν(*). προσαγορεύω σε
πολλὰ καὶ τοὺ[ς ἀδε]λφ[ο]ὺς̣ πάντας κατʼ ὄνομα τοὺς σὺν
25σοί, καὶ ὁ μακάριος Παῦλος προσαγορεύει σε καὶ τοὺς
σὺν σοὶ ἀδελφούς, κα̣[ὶ] οἱ σὺν ἡμῖν πάντες ἀδελφους(*)
προσαγορεύου[σί] σε μετὰ καὶ πάντων τῶν
σὺν σοὶ ἀδελφους(*). ἐφάνη δὲ ἡ ἀγάπη ὑμῶν
ἐν πᾶσι ἡ προκυρ̣ι̣σσομένη(*), μάλλιστα(*) ἡ μαρ-
30τυρηθεῖσα ἡμῖν ὑ̣πὸ Ψάιτος καὶ Ἁρποκρᾶ ἁλιέων,
ὡς καὶ συνηρίθμη̣τε(*) ταῖς ἄλλαις ἀγάπαις(*).
τοῦτο δὲ ποιο̣ῦντ̣ε̣ς συνχρηστοὶ(*) κληθήσομεν.

automated translation (mostly):

To the Lord and our brother Paieouti, son of Pennes, rejoice greatly in the Lord. Before all, I pray to the Lord God [...] bringing together with those having everything - [...] setting forth the disposition for the brother [...] especially because, with God [...] unity of one another, progressing in our midst [...] this way. Therefore, I pray to the everlasting God at all times for you and for the brothers in Christ (Χῷ); for it is fitting to remind one another in the Lord Christ (κῳ Χῷ) for the well-being of both. By doing this, we will be called Christians in Christ (Χρηστιανοὶ ... ἐν Χῷ). I have this in my heart, that even if we are far apart from each other in the faith of the everlasting God and our Savior, we are one in Him.

And upon Him is our salvation in Christ (Χω), who is in power along with His angels, who have His great power, having obtained His praise. I address you with many greetings and all the brothers by name, and the blessed Paul also addresses you and the brothers with you. They all address you, with and among all the brothers with you. Your love appeared in all things, especially witnessed by us under the names of Zaitos and Harpra, as you were also counted in the other affections. By doing this, we will be called fellow Christs (συνχρηστοὶ).

source: https://papyri.info/ddbdp/p.lond;6;1919
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Re: we shall be called with-Chrēstoi and Chrēstians in X

Post by Peter Kirby »

If you asked me to solve for X here...

X = Χρήστος
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Re: we shall be called with-Chrēstoi and Chrēstians in X

Post by Leucius Charinus »


Summary:
...[τῶν ἀδελφῶ]ν̣ ἐ̣ν̣ Χ(ρ*στ)ῷ...
...ἐν κ(υρί)ῳ Χ(ρ*στ)ῷ...
τοῦτο δὲ ποιοῦντες Χρηστιανοὶ κληθή[σο]μ̣εν̣ ἐν Χ(ρ*στ)ῷ.
...ἡ σωτηρία ἡμῶν Χ(ρ*στ)ω...
τοῦτο δὲ ποιο̣ῦντ̣ε̣ς συνχρηστοὶ κληθήσομεν.

It does appear that X = Χρήστος however when I ask google translate to translate "συνχρηστοὶ" it provides "co-users". And then when I ask it for "τοῦτο δὲ ποιο̣ῦντ̣ε̣ς συνχρηστοὶ κληθήσομεν" it provides "This is what we call our partners". So it may be that this "chrestos" relates to "use". IDK.


There's a discussion of PAPYRUS 1919 here:

https://archive.org/stream/mdp.39015010 ... 8_djvu.txt

"Greek Papyri in the British Museum. VI, Jews and Christians in Egypt;
The Jewish Troubles in Alexandria and the Athanasian Controversy"





PAPYRUS 1919.—Circa A.D. 330-340.
Inv. No. 2547. 252 X 41-2 cm.


Acquired in 1923. Light brown papyrus. Imperfect on the left, except in the lower
part of the papyrus, and rubbed along two narrow strips, one about the middle of col. 1,
the other towards the left middle of col. 2. Written in a good, flowing, rather large cursive
hand of notarial or official type, along the fibres, in black ink. Folded from right to left.


The mutilation of col. 1 of this letter makes its particular purpose uncertain,
but indeed it is somewhat doubtful whether it had any special purpose at all.
The earlier lines were occupied with the opening greeting, the complete or
restorable lines (from 1. 12 onwards) with compliments, religious reflections, and
the concluding greetings, so that only two or three lines remain for any definite
message or request, and it may well be that none such occurred. The style is of
the usual wordy and empty kind, and is further obscured by the writer's inability
(rather striking in the case of a man whose hand is so practised) to control his
cases, which are in extreme confusion.

The writer’s name is Πέννης, which at once recalls the Πίννης πρεσβύτερος
μονῆς Πτεμεγκύρκεως τοῦ (Migne τῆς) ᾿Αντεοπολίτου νομοῦ whose letter to John
Archaph is quoted by Athanasius, Afol. c. Ar., 67.
not πατήρ, so that we may take him to have been a man of some standing. He
mentions (1. 30) a Pais, who may be the Ψαεῖν ἀπὸ Tepdr of 1914, 57, and Terét
(see 1914, 57, n.) was near enough to the Antaeopolite nome to make a con-
A further argument in favour of the identification is 1]. 18-20,
which, though at present very doubtfully read, show that Pinnes was living at
a considerable distance from Paiéous. Φινές of 1914, 56 is likely to be a different
person, since that passage implies that Phines was in the neighbourhood of
Paiéous’s cell, and he is not called ἄπα, as a priest probably would be.


Col. 1.]


[Τῷ κυρίῳ κ]αὶ ἀδελφῷ ἡμῶν
ΞΕ dra) Παιηοῦτι Πέννης
[ἐν κ(υρίγῳ πλεῖστ]α χαίρειν.


[Πρὸ μὲν πάντων] εὔϊχομ]αι τῷ κυρίῳ θ(ε)ῷ


al oe eee eee 1. 7. ἀγ[α]γώντων σὺν
ΠΤ tua 7. [» . ἢ τῶ ἔχοντι πάν-
ἀν ? added | pay συνπωνούντω.
eee rr eae ] διάθεσιν τὴν ἀδελφῷ
ae eee ἡ Joe μάλίλ)ιστα ὅτι σὺν θ(ε)ῷ

τ᾽. lass eters Sede Wwaope..[.] ἀλλήλων τὴν
(eee eer ἢ τ]ὴν ἐν ἡμεῖν προοδεύουσαν
ἰυνολόνον ἀνα πόθοι τ]αύτην. Εὔχομαι οὖν τῷ ἀει-


[μνήστῳ θ(ε)ῷ π]άσαις ὥραις περὶ σοῦ καὶ περὶ
[τῶν ἀδελφῶ)ν ἐν Χ(ριστ)ῷ: καὶ γὰρ προσῆκόν


Is ἐστιν ἀλλήλίων μιμνήσκεσθαι ἐν κ(υρίγῳ ΧΑριστ)ῷ διὰ


τὴν ἑκατέρων ὑγείειαν' τοῦτο δὲ ποιοῦντες
Χρηστιανοὶ κληθήσοἷμεν ἐν X(pior)@. Τοῦτο δὲ
ἐν στέρνοις ἔχω ὅτι κἂν μεεθα μακρὰν

ἀλλήλων ἐν τῇ πίστει τοῦ ἀειμνήστου θ(εο)ῦ


~ οὶ ᾽
20 καὶ σωτῆρος ἡμῶν «ι΄... apev κ[αὶ ἐπ αὐτόν


Col. 2.]


25


ἐστιν ἡ σωτηρία ἡμῶν Χᾳ(ριστὴῷ δυνάμει ὄντα σὺν τοῖς
πράττουσι τὴν αἰὐ)τοῦ μεγάλην δύναμιν καὶ συν.
εσχηκότες τὴν] mplolonyopeiav. ἸΠροσαγορεύω σε
πολλὰ καὶ τοὺϊς ἀδεϊλφίο)ὺς πάντας κατ᾽ ὄνομα τοὺς σὺν
σοί, καὶ ὁ μακάριος Παῦλος προσαγορεύει σε καὶ τοὺς
σὺν σοὶ ἀδελφούς, Kali] of σὺν ἡμῖν πάντες ἀδελφοὺς
προσαγορεύουσῆ σε μετὰ καὶ πάντων τῶν

σὺν σοὶ ἀδελφούς. ᾿Εφάνη δὲ ἡ ἀγάπη ὑμῶν

ἐν πᾶσι ἡ προκυρισσομένη, μάλίλ)ιστα ἡ μαρ-



He calls Paiéous ἀδελφός,


go THE MELETIAN SCHISM [1919]


30 τυρηθεῖσα ἡμῖν ὑπὸ Ψαῖτος καὶ Ἁρποκρᾶ ἁλιεων,
ὡς καὶ συνηρίθμητε ταῖς ἄλλαις ἀγάπαις.
Τοῦτο δὲ ποιοῦντες συνχρηστοὶ κληθήσο-
μεν.


Verso :
ἄπα Παι]ηοῦτι


35 Jos.
Perhaps traces of I more line.


4. θω; sotool.g. 5. 1. ἀγαγόντων. Ἰ. Ἰ. συμπονούντω. =a. 1. ἡμῖν. 14. XO;
so Il. 17, 21. 15. Κῶ Xo. 16. ]. ὑγίειαν. 17. 1. Χριστιανοί, 18. |. ἥμεθα
(ὺ : see note). 19. θυ. 21. 1]. Χριστοῦ... ὄντων (ἢ). 22. mparrovot. |. συνε-
σχηκότων(). 23. 1. προσηγορίαν. 26. |. ἀδελφοί. 28. 1. ἀδελφῶν. 29. |. προκη-
ρυσσομένη. 31. 1]. συνηρίθμηται. ι of ἀγαπαις corr. 32. 1. σνγχριστοί,


‘To our lord and brother Apa Paiéous, Pennes, very many greetings in the
Lord. Before all things I pray to the Lord God ... I pray therefore to the ever-
to-be-remembered God at all hours on your behalf and on behalf of the brethren
in Christ ; for indeed it is fitting that we make mention of each other in the
Lord Christ for the health of both; and so doing we shall be called Christians
in Christ. This I have in my heart, that even though we were far from
each other, (yet) in the faith of our ever-to-be-remembered God and Saviour [we
are united 2] and in him is our salvation, if we are by power of Christ with those
who do his mighty power [sc. will ?] and have jointly obtained the appellation
[i.e. of Christians]. I greet you much and all the brethren by name that are with
you. The blessed Paul greets you and the brethren with you, and all the
brethren with us greet you with all the brethren with you. Your love which is
trumpeted abroad was shown in all things, particularly that which was testified to
us by Psais and Harpocras the fishermen, even as it is numbered among your
other works of love. And doing this we shall be called fellows with Christ.’


2. It is quite possible that nothing is lost before awa Παιηοῦτε and that 1. 2 was
indented, but an adjective may well have been inserted here, and as 1. 3 was apparently not
indented that is perhaps more probable.

4. The line over θω extends also over the w of κυριω, and as «w is separated by a space
from κυρ and was so written (the being linked to «) as to look like κω it is possible that
the writer, on reaching the end of the line, took the last two words for κω θω.

5. ae ἀγαπώντων (6. δ. μετὰ τῶν σε ay.) is naturally suggested, but seems hardly
possible, as the room is insufficient for a and the first stroke of r. But neither y is certain.

8. ἀδελφῷ: wv Of συνπωνούντων (1. 7) is made cursively, without raising the pen, but here
the concluding stroke is not extended upwards as in ]. 7, and it is improbable that more
than » was intended. The phrase may have been (e. g.) τὴν ἀδελφῷ πρέπουσαν.

9. μάλ(λ)ιστα: for the misspelling see 1. 29 and 1918, 12, and cf. too πόλλυ, 1916, 17;
1916, 37.

10. jvagpe ..[.]: perhaps κατίσυν-, &€. εἐσκε)υάσμεθα.

13. περί: cf. 1917, 7, n. and 24, n.

15. μεΪμνησκεσθαι : not a very easy reading, but possible, and it suits the traces better
than anything else which has suggested itself.

18. μεεθα : very puzzling. A verb is wanted, and the available space is scanty. The
original characters are certainly very like penOu. ἡ has been crossed out and ε written above
it. Prof. Hunt’s suggestion of ἤμεθα, though it cannot be read, is a probable correction.
Apparently the writer, by a curious slip of the pen, wrote μεηθα for ἡμεθα, and then, attempting
to correct it, altered ἡ to e instead of simply striking out » and inserting it before η. For
ἤμεθα and other ceponent forms see Moulton and Milligan, s. Ὁ. εἰμί.

21f. As it stands the passage means nothing, and emendation is necessary. That
adopted in the translation and critical notes seems the likeliest. Sua in |. 22 is perhaps
a slip of the pen (due to the δυνάμει of |. 21, which is directly above it) for βούλησιν.

25. Παῦλος: ἃ Παῦλον τὸν ἀναγνώστην is mentioned in 1914, 59, but was then with or
near Paigéous. The Παύλφ [πρ]εσβι[τ]αίρῳ τῷ ἀπὸ Τηέναιως of 1917, 11 is more likely to be
the person here referred to, but quite as likely this Paul was different from either.

32. τοῦτο δὲ ποιοῦντες: doing what? ‘This seems to be mere unthinking verbiage,
perhaps a recollection of Il. 16-17.

συνχρηστοὶ : συγχρῆστός is an unlikely adjective, and the Xpnoriavoi of 1. 17 (cf. 1918, 6,
Xpnoriavixod ; χρηστοφόρῳ, 1926, 1; ἄς.) makes it almost certain that συγχριστωί is to be
read. But the sense is not altogether clear. συν-Χριστοί, ‘ fellow-Christs’, is rather bold,
but is perhaps possible if we take the meaning to be ‘ fellow-workers with Christ’. Or has
xptorés its original sense, ‘ anotnied jointly’? The word may be miswritten for συνχρηστιανοί.

35. Possibly ἀπόδἾος.

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Re: we shall be called with-Chrēstoi and Chrēstians in X

Post by Peter Kirby »

Leucius Charinus wrote: Wed Feb 07, 2024 1:35 am It does appear that X = Χρήστος however when I ask google translate to translate "συνχρηστοὶ" it provides "co-users". And then when I ask it for "τοῦτο δὲ ποιο̣ῦντ̣ε̣ς συνχρηστοὶ κληθήσομεν" it provides "This is what we call our partners". So it may be that this "chrestos" relates to "use". IDK.
On the other hand, Google Translate is pretty useless.

It's the word χρηστοὶ with the prefix συν. The range of the word χρηστοὶ can be suggested from a lexicon but, more importantly, since this is central to our investigation here, we are or should be approaching this from the perspective of using our brains and the texts themselves to figure it out. We have the texts. We have inquiring minds. There's no other secret sauce that makes meaning jump from words to minds. The computer doesn't know. We have to look, and then we have to think about it.
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Re: we shall be called with-Chrēstoi and Chrēstians in X

Post by Peter Kirby »

Leucius Charinus wrote: Wed Feb 07, 2024 1:35 am There's a discussion of PAPYRUS 1919 here:

https://archive.org/stream/mdp.39015010 ... 8_djvu.txt

συνχρηστοὶ : συγχρῆστός is an unlikely adjective, and the Xpnoriavoi of 1. 17 (cf. 1918, 6,
Xpnoriavixod ; χρηστοφόρῳ, 1926, 1; ἄς.) makes it almost certain that συγχριστωί is to be
read. But the sense is not altogether clear. συν-Χριστοί, ‘ fellow-Christs’, is rather bold,
but is perhaps possible if we take the meaning to be ‘ fellow-workers with Christ’. Or has
xptorés its original sense, ‘ anotnied jointly’? The word may be miswritten for συνχρηστιανοί.

35. Possibly ἀπόδἾος.

Thank you for this!
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Re: we shall be called with-Chrēstoi and Chrēstians in X

Post by mbuckley3 »

FWIW, Lampe's Patristic Greek Lexicon (1961 ed.) has an entry on συνχρηστος/συγχρηστος, referencing this letter as its only instance.

The non-preferred suggestions clearly derive from the discussion in the H.I. Bell volume quoted by LC above. So : "2. ? for συγχρηστιανοι fellow Christian, ib.17; or ? for συγχριστοι fellow workers with Christ or anointed together."

The preferred translation is : "1. thoroughly good or worthy."

Lampe doesn't show his reasoning, and it initially looks forced, as we always take the συν prefix as combinatory, not an intensifier. However, Liddell and Scott (1869 ed.) has this on συν : "D.2. of the completion of an action, altogether, quite, thoroughly, as in συμπληροω, συναγνυμι, συγκοπτω, συμπατεω, συντεμνω etc. : hence it seems often only to strengthen the force of the simple word."

Drawing on this to look at a word in the area of our interest, the 'intensified' sense of συν seems to make the best sense of συγχρηστεον in Clement of Alexandria, Strom.7.7.39 : ουκ..συγχρηστεον..ποτε, a certain type of prayer is 'absolutely never to be used.'

So Lampe's translation of συνχρηστος is justifiable. I assume he has in mind such typical patristic punning as Clement, Strom.2.4.18 (as conventionally written out) : αυτικα οι εις τον Χριστον πεπιστευκοτες χρηστοι τε εισι και λεγονται/"those who believe in Christos are immediately chrestoi and said to be so."

■■■■■

However, the translation of συνχρηστοι as 'fellow Christs' is also justifiable. And FWIW, if asked how the letter writer would have written out in full the name of his lord, I would incline, like Peter, to suggest Χρηστος...

There is a case that we do not have to choose between alternatives here, but rather embrace the possibility that multiple associations clustered around the χριστος/ χρηστος axis from the outset. This was argued by the classicist John Moles*, doing his textual criticism on the basis that both words were pronounced 'chreestos'. In short : "..if the two forms sounded identical to pagans, they also sounded identical to Christians....Thus, as an early Christian, whenever one hears the name Chreestos, one hears the word 'good'; whenever one hears the word 'good', one hears the name 'Chreestos'." (But this is an argument on the interpretation of data which belongs on the main Χ- Files thread...)

■■■■■

* a draft article of 43 pages, 'What's in a Name ? Χριστος/χρηστος and χριστιανοι/χρηστιανοι in the First Century A.D.', posthumously published in The Collected Papers of J.L. Moles, Volume 1, ed. John Marincola, Brill, 2023
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Re: we shall be called with-Chrēstoi and Chrēstians in X

Post by Peter Kirby »

mbuckley3 wrote: Wed Feb 07, 2024 12:40 pm FWIW, Lampe's Patristic Greek Lexicon (1961 ed.) has an entry on συνχρηστος/συγχρηστος, referencing this letter as its only instance.

The non-preferred suggestions clearly derive from the discussion in the H.I. Bell volume quoted by LC above. So : "2. ? for συγχρηστιανοι fellow Christian, ib.17; or ? for συγχριστοι fellow workers with Christ or anointed together."

The preferred translation is : "1. thoroughly good or worthy."

Lampe doesn't show his reasoning, and it initially looks forced, as we always take the συν prefix as combinatory, not an intensifier. However, Liddell and Scott (1869 ed.) has this on συν : "D.2. of the completion of an action, altogether, quite, thoroughly, as in συμπληροω, συναγνυμι, συγκοπτω, συμπατεω, συντεμνω etc. : hence it seems often only to strengthen the force of the simple word."

Drawing on this to look at a word in the area of our interest, the 'intensified' sense of συν seems to make the best sense of συγχρηστεον in Clement of Alexandria, Strom.7.7.39 : ουκ..συγχρηστεον..ποτε, a certain type of prayer is 'absolutely never to be used.'

So Lampe's translation of συνχρηστος is justifiable. I assume he has in mind such typical patristic punning as Clement, Strom.2.4.18 (as conventionally written out) : αυτικα οι εις τον Χριστον πεπιστευκοτες χρηστοι τε εισι και λεγονται/"those who believe in Christos are immediately chrestoi and said to be so."

■■■■■

However, the translation of συνχρηστοι as 'fellow Christs' is also justifiable. And FWIW, if asked how the letter writer would have written out in full the name of his lord, I would incline, like Peter, to suggest Χρηστος...

There is a case that we do not have to choose between alternatives here, but rather embrace the possibility that multiple associations clustered around the χριστος/ χρηστος axis from the outset. This was argued by the classicist John Moles*, doing his textual criticism on the basis that both words were pronounced 'chreestos'. In short : "..if the two forms sounded identical to pagans, they also sounded identical to Christians....Thus, as an early Christian, whenever one hears the name Chreestos, one hears the word 'good'; whenever one hears the word 'good', one hears the name 'Chreestos'." (But this is an argument on the interpretation of data which belongs on the main Χ- Files thread...)

■■■■■

* a draft article of 43 pages, 'What's in a Name ? Χριστος/χρηστος and χριστιανοι/χρηστιανοι in the First Century A.D.', posthumously published in The Collected Papers of J.L. Moles, Volume 1, ed. John Marincola, Brill, 2023
Thank you! This is fantastic. After reading it eagerly, I will be reviewing it all again later. Excellent.
Secret Alias
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Re: we shall be called with-Chrēstoi and Chrēstians in X

Post by Secret Alias »

I've often wondered, given everything that is said about the Marcionites, whether their preference for Chrestos and their rejection of the Jewish Christ, accounts for their being identified as anti-Jewish. Or whether they are related.
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GakuseiDon
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Re: we shall be called with-Chrēstoi and Chrēstians in X

Post by GakuseiDon »

There is a case that we do not have to choose between alternatives here, but rather embrace the possibility that multiple associations clustered around the χριστος/ χρηστος axis from the outset. This was argued by the classicist John Moles*, doing his textual criticism on the basis that both words were pronounced 'chreestos'. In short : "..if the two forms sounded identical to pagans, they also sounded identical to Christians...
Tertullian seems to suggest that they were different sounds. From his Apology:
https://www.earlychristianwritings.com/ ... ian01.html

Well now, if there is this dislike of the name, what blame can you attach to names? What accusation can you bring against mere designations, save that something in the word sounds either barbarous, or unlucky, or scurrilous, or unchaste? But Christian, so far as the meaning of the word is concerned, is derived from anointing. Yes, and even when it is wrongly pronounced by you "Chrestianus" (for you do not even know accurately the name you hate), it comes from sweetness and benignity. You hate, therefore, in the guiltless, even a guiltless name. But the special ground of dislike to the sect is, that it bears the name of its Founder.

Also Tertullian's Ad nationes:
https://www.earlychristianwritings.com/ ... ian06.html

The name Christian, however, so far as its meaning goes, bears the sense of anointing. Even when by a faulty pronunciation you call us "Chrestians" (for you are not certain about even the sound of this noted name), you in fact lisp out the sense of pleasantness and goodness. You are therefore vilifying in harmless men even the harmless name we bear, which is not inconvenient for the tongue, nor harsh to the ear, nor injurious to a single being, nor rude for our country, being a good Greek word, as many others also are, and pleasant in sound and sense.

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Peter Kirby
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Re: we shall be called with-Chrēstoi and Chrēstians in X

Post by Peter Kirby »

GakuseiDon wrote: Thu Feb 08, 2024 6:25 pm
There is a case that we do not have to choose between alternatives here, but rather embrace the possibility that multiple associations clustered around the χριστος/ χρηστος axis from the outset. This was argued by the classicist John Moles*, doing his textual criticism on the basis that both words were pronounced 'chreestos'. In short : "..if the two forms sounded identical to pagans, they also sounded identical to Christians...
Tertullian seems to suggest that they were different sounds. From his Apology:
https://www.earlychristianwritings.com/ ... ian01.html

Well now, if there is this dislike of the name, what blame can you attach to names? What accusation can you bring against mere designations, save that something in the word sounds either barbarous, or unlucky, or scurrilous, or unchaste? But Christian, so far as the meaning of the word is concerned, is derived from anointing. Yes, and even when it is wrongly pronounced by you "Chrestianus" (for you do not even know accurately the name you hate), it comes from sweetness and benignity. You hate, therefore, in the guiltless, even a guiltless name. But the special ground of dislike to the sect is, that it bears the name of its Founder.

Also Tertullian's Ad nationes:
https://www.earlychristianwritings.com/ ... ian06.html

The name Christian, however, so far as its meaning goes, bears the sense of anointing. Even when by a faulty pronunciation you call us "Chrestians" (for you are not certain about even the sound of this noted name), you in fact lisp out the sense of pleasantness and goodness. You are therefore vilifying in harmless men even the harmless name we bear, which is not inconvenient for the tongue, nor harsh to the ear, nor injurious to a single being, nor rude for our country, being a good Greek word, as many others also are, and pleasant in sound and sense.

It's very much not clear that Tertullian is talking about Greek pronunciations.

He could instead be talking about Latin pronunciations, since he's writing in Latin and from Carthage.

I believe Latin "e" and "i" had different phonology in the Latin of the time. Someone correct me if that's wrong.

Tertullian does note the etymology, from the Greek, but that doesn't mean that the mispronunciation is noted of Greek speakers.

Notably, both Tertullian and Lactantius - who explicitly note this mispronunciation - were writing in Latin. Noted here: viewtopic.php?p=164469#p164469 (and Tertullian repeats this in the Apology)
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