Justin's Two Advents of Christ and the Title Christ

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Secret Alias
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Justin's Two Advents of Christ and the Title Christ

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Has anyone considered what impact Justin saying that the "real" Christ would only appear in the second advent? Was this a way of reconciling the two titles, the "nice guy" (Chrestos) first and then the mean guy "Christos" second? Just wondering what the thoughts of anyone at the forum who has half a brain.
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MrMacSon
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Re: Justin's Two Advents of Christ and the Title Christ

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Dialogue 31-32??


31
Justin: But if so great a power is shown to have followed and to be still following the dispensation of His suffering, how great shall that be which shall follow His glorious advent! For He shall come on the clouds as the Son of man, so Daniel foretold, and His angels shall come with Him. These are the words [Daniel 7:9-38]:

'I beheld till the thrones were set; and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of His head like the pure wool. His throne was like a fiery flame, His wheels as burning fire. A fiery stream issued and came forth from before Him. Thousand thousands ministered unto Him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him. The books were opened, and the judgment was set. I beheld then the voice of the great words which the horn speaks: and the beast was beat down, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame. And the rest of the beasts were taken away from their dominion, and a period of life was given to the beasts until a season and time. I saw in the vision of the night, and, behold, one like the Son of man coming with the clouds of heaven; and He came to the Ancient of days, and stood before Him. And they who stood by brought Him near; and there were given Him power and kingly honour, and all nations of the earth by their families, and all glory, serve Him. And His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not be taken away; and His kingdom shall not be destroyed. And my spirit was chilled within my frame, and the visions of my head troubled me. I came near unto one of them that stood by, and inquired the precise meaning of all these things. In answer he speaks to me, and showed me the judgment of the matters: These great beasts are four kingdoms, which shall perish from the earth, and shall not receive dominion for ever, even for ever and ever. Then I wished to know exactly about the fourth beast, which destroyed all [the others] and was very terrible, its teeth of iron, and its nails of brass; which devoured, made waste, and stamped the residue with its feet: also about the ten horns upon its head, and of the one which came up, by means of which three of the former fell. And that horn had eyes, and a mouth speaking great things; and its countenance excelled the rest. And I beheld that horn waging war against the saints, and prevailing against them, until the Ancient of days came; and He gave judgment for the saints of the Most High. And the time came, and the saints of the Most High possessed the kingdom. And it was told me concerning the fourth beast: There shall be a fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall prevail over all these kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall destroy and make it thoroughly waste. And the ten horns are ten kings that shall arise; and one shall arise after them; and he shall surpass the first in evil deeds, and he shall subdue three kings, and he shall speak words against the Most High, and shall overthrow the rest of the saints of the Most High, and shall expect to change the seasons and the times. And it shall be delivered into his hands for a time, and times, and half a time. And the judgment sat, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end. And the kingdom, and the power, and the great places of the kingdoms under the heavens, were given to the holy people of the Most High, to reign in an everlasting kingdom: and all powers shall be subject to Him, and shall obey Him. Hitherto is the end of the matter. I, Daniel, was possessed with a very great astonishment, and my speech was changed in me; yet I kept the matter in my heart.'

32
Trypho: These and such like Scriptures, sir, compel us to wait for Him who, as Son of man, receives from the Ancient of days the everlasting kingdom. But this so-called Christ of yours was dishonourable and inglorious, so much so that the last curse contained in the law of God fell on him, for he was crucified.

Justin: If, sirs, it were not said by the Scriptures which I have already quoted, that His form was inglorious, and His generation not declared, and that for His death the rich would suffer death, and with His stripes we should be healed, and that He would be led away like a sheep; and if I had not explained that there would be two advents of His — one in which He was pierced by you; a second, when you shall know Him whom you have pierced, and your tribes shall mourn, each tribe by itself, the women apart, and the men apart — then I must have been speaking dubious and obscure things.

But now, by means of the contents of those Scriptures esteemed holy and prophetic among you, I attempt to prove all [that I have adduced], in the hope that some one of you may be found to be of that remnant which has been left by the grace of the Lord of Sabaoth for the eternal salvation. In order, therefore, that the matter inquired into may be plainer to you, I will mention to you other words also spoken by the blessed David, from which you will perceive that the Lord is called the Christ by the Holy Spirit of prophecy; and that the Lord, the Father of all, has brought Him again from the earth, setting Him at His own right hand, until He makes His enemies His footstool; which indeed happens from the time that our Lord Jesus Christ ascended to heaven, after He rose again from the dead, the times now running on to their consummation; and he whom Daniel foretells would have dominion for a time, and times, and an half, is even already at the door, about to speak blasphemous and daring things against the Most High.

But you, being ignorant of how long he will have dominion, hold another opinion. For you interpret the 'time' as being a hundred years. But if this is so, the man of sin must, at the shortest, reign three hundred and fifty years, in order that we may compute that which is said by the holy Daniel —and 'times' to be two times only. All this I have said to you in digression, in order that you at length may be persuaded of what has been declared against you by God, that you are foolish sons; and of this, 'Therefore, behold, I will proceed to take away this people, and shall take them away; and I will strip the wise of their wisdom, and will hide the understanding of their prudent men' [Isaiah 29:14], and may cease to deceive yourselves and those who hear you, and may learn of us, who have been taught wisdom by the grace of Christ. The words, then, which were spoken by David, are these [Psalm 110]:

The Lord said to My Lord, Sit at My right hand, until I make Your enemies Your footstool. The Lord shall send the rod of Your strength out of Sion: rule also in the midst of Your enemies. With You shall be, in the day, the chief of Your power, in the beauties of Your saints. From the womb, before the morning star, have I begotten You. The Lord has sworn, and will not repent: You are a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek. The Lord is at Your right hand: He has crushed kings in the day of His wrath: He shall judge among the heathen, He shall fill [with] the dead bodies. He shall drink of the brook in the way; therefore shall He lift up the head.'

https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/01283.htm




33
Justin: And I am not ignorant that you venture to expound this psalm as if it referred to king Hezekiah; but that you are mistaken, I shall prove to you from these very words immediately. 'The Lord has sworn, and will not repent,' it is said; and, 'You are a priest forever, after the order of Melchizedek,' with what follows and precedes. Not even you will venture to object that Hezekiah was either a priest, or is the everlasting priest of God; but that this is spoken of our Jesus, these expressions show. But your ears are shut up, and your hearts are made dull. For by this statement, 'The Lord has sworn, and will not repent: You are a priest for ever, after the order of Melchizedek,' with an oath God has shown Him (on account of your unbelief) to be the High Priest after the order of Melchizedek; ie. as Melchizedek was described by Moses as the priest of the Most High, and he was a priest of those who were in uncircumcision, and blessed the circumcised Abraham who brought him tithes, so God has shown that His everlasting Priest, called also by the Holy Spirit Lord, would be Priest of those in uncircumcision. Those too in circumcision who approach Him, that is, believing Him and seeking blessings from Him, He will both receive and bless. And that He shall be first humble as a man, and then exalted, these words at the end of the Psalm show: 'He shall drink of the brook in the way,' and then, 'Therefore shall He lift up the head.'

34
Justin: Further, to persuade you that you have not understood anything of the Scriptures, I will remind you of another psalm, dictated to David by the Holy Spirit, which you say refers to Solomon, who was also your king. But it refers also to our Christ. But you deceive yourselves by the ambiguous forms of speech. For where it is said, 'The law of the Lord is perfect,' you do not understand it of the law which was to be after Moses, but of the law which was given by Moses, although God declared that He would establish a new law and a new covenant. And where it has been said, 'O God, give Your judgment to the king,' since Solomon was king, you say that the Psalm refers to him, although the words of the Psalm expressly proclaim that reference is made to the everlasting King, i.e., to Christ. For Christ is King, and Priest, and God, and Lord, and angel, and man, and captain, and stone, and a Son born, and first made subject to suffering, then returning to heaven, and again coming with glory, and He is preached as having the everlasting kingdom: so I prove from all the Scriptures. But that you may perceive what I have said, I quote the words of the Psalm; they are these [Psalm 72]:

O God, give Your judgment to the king, and Your righteousness unto the king's son, to judge Your people with righteousness, and Your poor with judgment. The mountains shall take up peace to the people, and the little hills righteousness. He shall judge the poor of the people, and shall save the children of the needy, and shall abase the slanderer. He shall co-endure with the sun, and before the moon unto all generations. He shall come down like rain upon the fleece, as drops falling on the earth. In His days shall righteousness flourish, and abundance of peace until the moon be taken away. And He shall have dominion from sea to sea, and from the rivers unto the ends of the earth. Ethiopians shall fall down before Him, and His enemies shall lick the dust. The kings of Tarshish and the isles shall offer gifts; the kings of Arabia and Seba shall offer gifts; and all the kings of the earth shall worship Him, and all the nations shall serve Him: for He has delivered the poor from the man of power, and the needy that has no helper. He shall spare the poor and needy, and shall save the souls of the needy: He shall redeem their souls from usury and injustice, and His name shall be honourable before them. And He shall live, and to Him shall be given of the gold of Arabia, and they shall pray continually for Him: they shall bless Him all the day. And there shall be a foundation on the earth, it shall be exalted on the tops of the mountains: His fruit shall be on Lebanon, and they of the city shall flourish like grass of the earth. His name shall be blessed forever. His name shall endure before the sun; and all tribes of the earth shall be blessed in Him, all nations shall call Him blessed. Blessed be the Lord, the God of Israel, who only does wondrous things; and blessed be His glorious name for ever, and for ever and ever; and the whole earth shall be filled with His glory. Amen, amen.

And at the close of this Psalm which I have quoted, it is written, 'The hymns of David the son of Jesse are ended.'

Moreover, that Solomon was a renowned and great king, by whom the temple called that at Jerusalem was built, I know; but that none of those things mentioned in the Psalm happened to him, is evident. For neither did all kings worship him; nor did he reign to the ends of the earth; nor did his enemies, falling before him, lick the dust. Nay, also, I venture to repeat what is written in the book of Kings as committed by him, how through a woman's influence he worshipped the idols of Sidon, which those of the Gentiles who know God, the Maker of all things through Jesus the crucified, do not venture to do, but abide every torture and vengeance even to the extremity of death, rather than worship idols, or eat meat offered to idols.

35
Trypho: I believe, however, that many of those who say that they confess Jesus, and are called Christians, eat meats offered to idols, and declare that they are by no means injured in consequence.

Justin: The fact that there are such men confessing themselves to be Christians, and admitting the crucified Jesus to be both Lord and Christ, yet not teaching His doctrines, but those of the spirits of error, causes us who are disciples of the true and pure doctrine of Jesus Christ, to be more faithful and steadfast in the hope announced by Him. For what things He predicted would take place in His name, these we do see being actually accomplished in our sight.

For he said, 'Many shall come in My name, clothed outwardly in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves' [Matthew 7:15]. And, 'There shall be schisms and heresies' [1 Corinthians 11:19] And, 'Beware of false prophets, who shall come to you clothed outwardly in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves' [Matthew 7:15]. And, 'Many false Christs and false apostles shall arise, and shall deceive many of the faithful' [Matthew 24:11].

There are therefore many, my friends, who, coming forward in the name of Jesus, taught both to speak and act impious and blasphemous things; and these are called by us after the name of the men from whom each doctrine and opinion had its origin. (For some in one way, others in another, teach to blaspheme the Maker of all things, and Christ, who was foretold by Him as coming, and the God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, with whom we have nothing in common, since we know them to be atheists, impious, unrighteous, and sinful, and confessors of Jesus in name only, instead of worshippers of Him. Yet they style themselves Christians, just as certain among the Gentiles inscribe the name of God upon the works of their own hands, and partake in nefarious and impious rites.)

Some are called Marcians, and some Valentinians, and some Basilidians, and some Saturnilians, and others by other names; each called after the originator of the individual opinion, just as each one of those who consider themselves philosophers, as I said before, thinks he must bear the name of the philosophy which he follows, from the name of the father of the particular doctrine.

So that, in consequence of these events, we know that Jesus foreknew what would happen after Him, as well as in consequence of many other events which He foretold would befall those who believed on and confessed Him, the Christ. For all that we suffer, even when killed by friends, He foretold would take place; so that it is manifest no word or act of His can be found fault with. Wherefore we pray for you and for all other men who hate us; in order that you — having repented along with us, may not blaspheme Him who, by His works, by the mighty deeds even now wrought through His name, by the words He taught, by the prophecies announced concerning Him, the blameless, and in all things irreproachable, Christ Jesus — believing in Him, may be saved in His second glorious advent, and may not be condemned to fire by Him.


Last edited by MrMacSon on Mon Feb 12, 2024 11:36 am, edited 6 times in total.
lclapshaw
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Re: Justin's Two Advents of Christ and the Title Christ

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Secret Alias wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2024 8:58 am Has anyone considered what impact Justin saying that the "real" Christ would only appear in the second advent? Was this a way of reconciling the two titles, the "nice guy" (Chrestos) first and then the mean guy "Christos" second? Just wondering what the thoughts of anyone at the forum who has half a brain.
Love to help but, I still have a whole brain. Got an original source for us to look at btw?
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Peter Kirby
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Re: Justin's Two Advents of Christ and the Title Christ

Post by Peter Kirby »

I've previously suggested that Justin was a former Marcionite (or other non-orthodox), still using Marcionite (or other non-orthodox) readings of scripture, adapted.
Peter Kirby wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 12:58 am This Septuagint passage (in its specifically Septuagint version, which may be less familiar to modern people using translations from the Hebrew) was foundational for early Christians.

1 The Lord said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. 2 The Lord shall send out a rod of power for thee out of Sion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies. 3 With thee is dominion in the day of thy power, in the splendours of thy saints: I have begotten thee from the womb before the morning. 4 The Lord sware, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever, after the order of Melchisedec.

...
Specifically, the excerpts of Theodotus (via Clement) says this:
For we thus understand “I begot thee before the morning star” with reference to the first-created Logos of God and similarly “thy name is before sun” and moon and before all creation
Notice that this is likewise found in Justin:

"And David predicted that He would be born from the womb before sun and moon, according to the Father's will, and made Him known, being Christ, as God strong and to be worshipped."

I was curious what this phrase "before sun and moon" meant (and later realized it was because I'm a dunce compared to the ancient Christians and Jews when it comes to picking up context clues in Jewish scriptures...), and I found a clue here.

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/t ... ytus5.html
These are the statements which the patrons of the Sethian doctrines make, as far as it is possible to declare in a few words. Their system, however, is made up (of tenets) from natural (philosophers), and of expressions uttered in reference to different other subjects; and transferring (the sense of) these to the Eternal Logos, they explain them as we have declared. But they assert likewise that Moses confirms their doctrine when he says, "Darkness, and mist, and tempest." These, (the Sethian) says, are the three principles (of our system); or when he states that three were born in paradise--Adam, Eve, the serpent; or when he speaks of three (persons, namely) Cain, Abel, Seth; and again of three (others)--Shem, Ham, Japheth; or when he mentions three patriarchs -Abraham, Isaac, Jacob; or when he speaks of the existence of three days before sun and moon; or when he mentions three laws--prohibitory, permissive, and adjudicatory of punishment.
Obviously! The sun and moon were created on the fourth day. So Justin Martyr is saying that David said that Christ "would be born from the womb" before the fourth day of creation. Justin gives a more elaborate explanation here in Dialogue 61:
“I shall give you another testimony, my friends,” said I, “from the Scriptures, that God begat before all creatures a Beginning, [who was] a certain rational power [proceeding] from Himself, who is called by the Holy Spirit, now the Glory of the Lord, now the Son, again Wisdom, again an Angel, then God, and then Lord and Logos; and on another occasion He calls Himself Captain, when He appeared in human form to Joshua the son of Nave (Nun). For He can be called by all those names, since He ministers to the Father’s will, and since He was begotten of the Father by an act of will; just as we see happening among ourselves: for when we give out some word, we beget the word; yet not by abscission, so as to lessen the word [which remains] in us, when we give it out: and just as we see also happening in the case of a fire, which is not lessened when it has kindled [another], but remains the same; and that which has been kindled by it likewise appears to exist by itself, not diminishing that from which it was kindled. The Word of Wisdom, who is Himself this God begotten of the Father of all things, and Word, and Wisdom, and Power, and the Glory of the Begetter, will bear evidence to me, when He speaks by Solomon the following: ‘If I shall declare to you what happens daily, I shall call to mind events from everlasting, and review them. The Lord made me the beginning of His ways for His works. From everlasting He established me in the beginning, before He had made the earth, and before He had made the deeps, before the springs of the waters had issued forth, before the mountains had been established. Before all the hills He begets me. God made the country, and the desert, and the highest inhabited places under the sky. When He made ready the heavens, I was along with Him, and when He set up His throne on the winds: when He made the high clouds strong, and the springs of the deep safe, when He made the foundations of the earth, I was with Him arranging.
With this, Justin implies that God begat "a Beginning" before Genesis 1:1, and "in the Beginning" created the heaven and the earth. Justin also implies that this "Son" is the same as the "Holy Spirit," perhaps the "Spirit of God" mentioned in Genesis 1:2. And Justin calls him the "Word," through whom God made other things when he spoke in Genesis 1:3. Justin adduces "let us make man in our image" as evidence of this Word, which is God and thus increases the number to plural.

Trypho elsewhere mentions the sun and moon as being given unto the nations to worship as gods: "show us that the Spirit of prophecy admits another God besides the Maker of all things, taking care not to speak of the sun and moon, which, it is written, God has given to the nations to worship as gods..." (Dialogue 55) The first-begotten Word has priority over the sun and moon, both temporally and in importance.

...
Dialogue 64 has Justin argue that Christ will come forth from the heavens, and return to the highest places, that his divinity be recognized:
And you remember from other words also spoken by David, and which I have mentioned before, how it is declared that He would come forth from the highest heavens, and again return to the same places, in order that you may recognise Him as God coming forth from above, and man living among men; and [how it is declared] that He will again appear, and they who pierced Him shall see Him, and shall bewail Him. [The words] are these: 'The heavens declare the glory of God, and the firmament shows His handiwork. Day unto day utters speech, and night unto night shows knowledge: They are not speeches or words whose voices are heard. Their sound has gone out through all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world. In the sun has he set his habitation; and he, like a bridegroom going forth from his chamber, will rejoice as a giant to run his race: from the highest heaven is his going forth, and he returns to the highest heaven, and there is not one who shall be hidden from his heat.
Is this a proof-text that originally had a much more "Marcionite" implication? It's natural to think so. If Christ is first seen being "born," then his coming forth from the highest heavens is concealed, and the whole point that "you may recognize Him as God coming from above" is weakened because it proceeds from faith, not sight.

Justin claims that Jesus has supernatural, otherworldly blood (Dialogue 54):
Christ would wash those who believe in him with his own blood. For the Holy Spirit called those who receive remission of sins through him, his garments; among whom he is always present in power, but will be manifestly present at his second coming. That the Scripture mentions the blood of the grape has been evidently designed, because Christ derives blood, not from the seed of man, but from the power of God. For as God, and not man, has produced the blood of the vine, so also has (one) predicted that the blood of Christ would be, not of the seed of man, but of the power of God.
Dialogue 84 says that the virgin birth was a sign, and Dialogue 66 says that nobody else has fulfilled Isaiah 7:14:

"It is evident to all that in the race of Abraham according to the flesh no one has been born of a virgin, or is said to have been born, save this our Christ."

Justin always speaks of the parentage of the virgin ("deigned to become Incarnate, and be born of this Virgin of the family of David” in Dialogue 45), insisting that Christ is not a "man born of men." Justin also takes the reference to "one like unto a son of man" (Dan. 7:13) to show that Christ "appeared, and was man, but not of human seed." (Dialogue 76) Likewise where it says "a stone cut out of the mountain without hands" (Dan. 2:45), Justin sees this as speaking of Jesus, "of the will of the Father and God of all things, who brought him forth." In short, Justin maintains that "Christ existed as God before the ages, then, that he submitted to be born and to become man, yet that he is not man of men."

I started this exploration because I had a hard time understanding the title phrase "born of the womb before sun and moon." I came away with several observations about Justin:

(1) Justin held that the "seed of reason," which was in Stoics and other good philosophers, was the second God.
(2) Justin held that any time God appeared in a certain time and place, that had to be the second God.
(3) Justin held that the first-begotten Angel was the second God, who participated in creation.
(4) Justin held that the second God may be recognized as divine because he came forth from heaven and returned to heaven.
(5) Justin held that the second God appeared as a divine man brought forth by God, with blood that is of the power of God.
(6) Justin held that the second God deigned to become incarnate and to be born of the Virgin, as a sign.
(7) Justin held that the second God was the subject of the prophecies concerning the Christ and other scriptural allusions.
(8) Justin held that these scriptural allusions regarding the first coming of Christ, to suffer, were fulfilled in the memoirs of the apostles.

Justin got (1) and (2) from his Greek philosophical education. Justin may have gotten (3) directly from his conversion to Christianity, but some more remote cause could be pre-Christian speculation.

Justin got (4) and possibly (5) from Christian explanations of scripture that seem to have a descended-from-heavens tinge. This kind of influence may be reinforced by the wording of being begotten "before sun and moon," elsewhere emphasized by Christians considered heretical. Justin got (6) from teachings that are considered more orthodox.

(7) is the epistemological core of Christianity for Justin, and (8) is the proof of this knowledge, which should convince non-believers.
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Re: Justin's Two Advents of Christ and the Title Christ

Post by Peter Kirby »

The Apostle Paul (1 Corinthians 8), the well-known passage on the subject:

8 Now about food sacrificed to idols: We know that “We all possess knowledge.” But knowledge puffs up while love builds up. 2 Those who think they know something do not yet know as they ought to know. 3 But whoever loves God is known by God.

4 So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that “An idol is nothing at all in the world” and that “There is no God but one.” 5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), 6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

7 But not everyone possesses this knowledge. Some people are still so accustomed to idols that when they eat sacrificial food they think of it as having been sacrificed to a god, and since their conscience is weak, it is defiled. 8 But food does not bring us near to God; we are no worse if we do not eat, and no better if we do.

9 Be careful, however, that the exercise of your rights does not become a stumbling block to the weak. 10 For if someone with a weak conscience sees you, with all your knowledge, eating in an idol’s temple, won’t that person be emboldened to eat what is sacrificed to idols? 11 So this weak brother or sister, for whom Christ died, is destroyed by your knowledge. 12 When you sin against them in this way and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ. 13 Therefore, if what I eat causes my brother or sister to fall into sin, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause them to fall.

Justin Martyr, quoted above:

35
Trypho: I believe, however, that many of those who say that they confess Jesus, and are called Christians, eat meats offered to idols, and declare that they are by no means injured in consequence [Paul: We know that “An idol is nothing at all in the world” ... since their conscience is weak, it is defiled].

Justin: The fact that there are such men confessing themselves to be Christians, and admitting the crucified Jesus to be both Lord and Christ [Paul: "Lord Jesus Christ"], yet not teaching His doctrines, but those of the spirits of error, causes us who are disciples of the true and pure doctrine of Jesus Christ, to be more faithful and steadfast in the hope announced by Him. For what things He predicted would take place in His name, these we do see being actually accomplished in our sight.

For he said, 'Many shall come in My name, clothed outwardly in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves' [Matthew 24:5 + Matthew 7:15]. And, 'There shall be schisms and heresies' [?] [not known to be a saying of Jesus... paraphrase of Matthew 24:10?]. And, 'Beware of false prophets, who shall come to you clothed outwardly in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves' [Matthew 7:15]. And, 'Many false Christs and false apostles shall arise, and shall deceive many of the faithful' [Matthew 24:11].

Trypho in Justin Martyr can be read as talking about the strong in 'knowledge' in 1 Corinthians 8, Paul being one.

Justin Martyr can be read as saying that Paul did not agree with the doctrine of Jesus Christ.
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Re: Justin's Two Advents of Christ and the Title Christ

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Secret Alias wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2024 8:58 am Has anyone considered what impact Justin saying that the "real" Christ would only appear in the second advent? Was this a way of reconciling the two titles, the "nice guy" (Chrestos) first and then the mean guy "Christos" second? Just wondering what the thoughts of anyone at the forum who has half a brain.
Not sure if I qualify on the brains side but: Jesus was pushed as "Christos" to the Jews and "Chrestos" to the pagans, since pagans probably didn't appreciate the significance of "Christos" and probably didn't care. All that mattered was that Jesus was a heavenly magical resource that could be invoked by adherents, like any other pagan god.
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Re: Justin's Two Advents of Christ and the Title Christ

Post by Peter Kirby »

More from Justin Martyr, Dialogue 35:

There are therefore many, my friends, who, coming forward in the name of Jesus, taught both to speak and act impious and blasphemous things; and these are called by us after the name of the men from whom each doctrine and opinion had its origin. (For some in one way, others in another, teach to blaspheme the Maker of all things, and Christ, who was foretold by Him as coming, and the God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, with whom we have nothing in common, since we know them to be atheists, impious, unrighteous, and sinful, and confessors of Jesus in name only, instead of worshippers of Him. Yet they style themselves Christians [spelling?], just as certain among the Gentiles inscribe the name of God upon the works of their own hands, and partake in nefarious and impious rites.)

Some are called Marcians, and some Valentinians, and some Basilidians, and some Saturnilians, and others by other names; each called after the originator of the individual opinion, just as each one of those who consider themselves philosophers, as I said before, thinks he must bear the name of the philosophy which he follows, from the name of the father of the particular doctrine.

So that, in consequence of these events, we know that Jesus foreknew what would happen after Him, as well as in consequence of many other events which He foretold would befall those who believed on and confessed Him, the Christ. For all that we suffer, even when killed by friends, He foretold would take place; so that it is manifest no word or act of His can be found fault with. Wherefore we pray for you and for all other men who hate us; in order that you — having repented along with us, may not blaspheme Him who, by His works, by the mighty deeds even now wrought through His name, by the words He taught, by the prophecies announced concerning Him, the blameless, and in all things irreproachable, Christ Jesus — believing in Him, may be saved in His second glorious advent, and may not be condemned to fire by Him.

They are accused of having "blasphemed ... Christ."

They are schismatics to those who "confessed Him the Christ," believing "the prophecies" were fulfilled in him.

It seems credible that they denied "that Jesus is the Christ" (1 John 2:22). As such, in the terms of Justin, they blasphemed "the Maker" and "Christ" (or, in the terms of 1 John 2:22, regarding the antichrists, the "Father" and "Son").
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DCHindley
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Re: Justin's Two Advents of Christ and the Title Christ

Post by DCHindley »

Going back to "before sun and moon," I think you accurately identified this as referring to the 4th day of creation in Genesis.

This reminds me strongly of Philo's description of the Judean god in words that were yanked out of their Platonic context. Plato for sure envisioned that parts of God's cosmic presence existed in a realm where time did not exist. Philo adopts Platonic speculations when he refashioned them to describe his national god as if embodying the very cosmic principals upon which the cosmos operated.

You know, Richard Carrier has a degree in "the History of Philosophy," and would be a perfect participant the the matter under discussion. I have never heard him expound on it in his criticism of Biblical criticism in general, but there can always be a first time. Since we would not be *paying* (subscribing) customers here, maybe he figures he cannot buy any single malt Bourbon by doing so, and mythical Jesus groupies are attracted only by Bourbon and cardigan sweaters.

I believe I read about the "timeless" aspect of God in Dillon or Runia.*

DCH

*John Dillon, The Middle Platonists: 80 BC to AD 250 (1977, revised 1996) This includes looks at the schools of Aristotle, Zeno and others such as Valentinus as they borrowed concepts from one another more and more as time progressed. I think he created controversy when he included Philo as a serious adapter of Platonic philosophy in a new direction.
*D T Runia, Philo of Alexandria and the Timaeus of Plato: Vol 1 Monograph, vol 2 Notes, Index & Bibliography (1983). This is to cover's Philo's adaptation of the Middle Platonism of his day and place. He followed Plato pretty closely in many ways, but IIRC was heavily influenced by Stoicism when it comes to use of technical terms.
davidmartin
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Re: Justin's Two Advents of Christ and the Title Christ

Post by davidmartin »

Peter Kirby wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2024 1:51 pm They are accused of having "blasphemed ... Christ."

They are schismatics to those who "confessed Him the Christ," believing "the prophecies" were fulfilled in him.

It seems credible that they denied "that Jesus is the Christ" (1 John 2:22). As such, in the terms of Justin, they blasphemed "the Maker" and "Christ" (or, in the terms of 1 John 2:22, regarding the antichrists, the "Father" and "Son").
I feel caution equating this to 1 John too directly
There's more than 1 way to deny Jesus is the Christ JM seems to say
If they were to deny he was the prophecied one, that denies he is the Messiah
A 1 John denial might be docetic, that Jesus wasn't literally the saviour (I used to think perhaps they denied the name Jesus, kind of moved away from that view)
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Peter Kirby
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Re: Justin's Two Advents of Christ and the Title Christ

Post by Peter Kirby »

davidmartin wrote: Wed Feb 14, 2024 2:41 am
Peter Kirby wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2024 1:51 pm They are accused of having "blasphemed ... Christ."

They are schismatics to those who "confessed Him the Christ," believing "the prophecies" were fulfilled in him.

It seems credible that they denied "that Jesus is the Christ" (1 John 2:22). As such, in the terms of Justin, they blasphemed "the Maker" and "Christ" (or, in the terms of 1 John 2:22, regarding the antichrists, the "Father" and "Son").
I feel caution equating this to 1 John too directly
There's more than 1 way to deny Jesus is the Christ JM seems to say
If they were to deny he was the prophecied one, that denies he is the Messiah
A 1 John denial might be docetic, that Jesus wasn't literally the saviour (I used to think perhaps they denied the name Jesus, kind of moved away from that view)
It might also be docetic.

Also.
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