A good argument to believe that the epistles were genuine

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Giuseppe
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A good argument to believe that the epistles were genuine

Post by Giuseppe »

It is said that Marcion introduced the Apostolikon in Rome to recommend himself in that community.

But a such recommendation would have had some chance of success only if:

the Roman community knew in advance:
  • that Marcion didn't invent himself the epistles ex nihilo;
  • that Marcion didn't derive the epistles from Simonians/Cerdonites who would have invented the epistles.
Therefore, the hypothesis that Marcion derived passively the epistles from the communities visited by him in the East is more probable than the hypothesis of a marcionite or a simonian/cerdonite fabrication of the epistles.

Then, obviously, the temptation of interpolating the received epistles is always in action.
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Re: A good argument to believe that the epistles were genuine

Post by Secret Alias »

What does "genuine" or "authentic" really mean? Idiots make the criteria something like "all of Acts is true" "none of the epistles have interpolation." Who believes in this sort of "authenticity"? I'd be happy with the epistles contain some first century material at the core of the development of early Christianity.
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Giuseppe
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Re: A good argument to believe that the epistles were genuine

Post by Giuseppe »

The argument is not that the "none of the epistles have interpolation", but that the epistles for the most part precede both (1) Marcion and (2) the precursors of Marcion (i.e. Simonians and Cerdonites).
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Peter Kirby
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Re: A good argument to believe that the epistles were genuine

Post by Peter Kirby »

Giuseppe wrote: Sun Feb 25, 2024 10:55 am It is said that Marcion introduced the Apostolikon in Rome to recommend himself in that community.
What is the reference here?
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Joseph D. L.
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Re: A good argument to believe that the epistles were genuine

Post by Joseph D. L. »

Peter Kirby wrote: Sun Feb 25, 2024 1:10 pm
Giuseppe wrote: Sun Feb 25, 2024 10:55 am It is said that Marcion introduced the Apostolikon in Rome to recommend himself in that community.
What is the reference here?
I think he's referring to Tertullian. Although I thought Tertullian said Marcion went to Rome to deliver his Antithesis to defend his teachings; could be that "antithesis" just referred both the Evangelion and Apostolikon [speculative].
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GakuseiDon
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Re: A good argument to believe that the epistles were genuine

Post by GakuseiDon »

Yes, I'd be interested in that reference also. I'm pretty sure Tertullian doesn't write that, nor Irenaeus. I thought there might be something in Epiphanius's Panarion, where he gives more background information about Marcion, but he doesn't write anything about that either. They point to Marcion being influenced by Cerdo, whom already had been expressing some of the same beliefs, though Cerdo isn't mentioned in connection to Paul.
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MrMacSon
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Re: A good argument to believe that the epistles were genuine

Post by MrMacSon »

Antithesis
Noun
  1. a person or thing that is the direct opposite of someone or something else:
    • "love is the antithesis of selfishness"
    • Similar: converse; reverse; reversal; inverse; obverse.
  2. a rhetorical or literary device in which an opposition or contrast of ideas is expressed:
    • "figures of speech such as antithesis" · "his sermons were full of startling antitheses"
  3. a contrast or opposition between two things:
    • "the antithesis between occult and rational mentalities"
    • Similar: contrast; opposition


I wonder if 'antithesis' wrt Marcion just meant a contrary view, not a separate document
(and I wonder if the framing we have - by those adversarial to Marcion[ism] - misrepresents Marcion as oppositional, when he may in fact have been primary or innovative; so the reactions are what would have been antithetical (as in #2 herein))
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Giuseppe
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Re: A good argument to believe that the epistles were genuine

Post by Giuseppe »

Peter Kirby wrote: Sun Feb 25, 2024 1:10 pm
Giuseppe wrote: Sun Feb 25, 2024 10:55 am It is said that Marcion introduced the Apostolikon in Rome to recommend himself in that community.
What is the reference here?
I have found this in Irenaeus, about an episode probably interpreted as being happened in Rome :


And Polycarp himself replied to Marcion, who met him on one occasion, and said, Do you know me? I do know you, the first-born of Satan.

https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103303.htm


It seems to me from this passage that Marcion was addressing the his propaganda to the Roman community. "Do you know me?" should be better translated as: "Do you recognize me, i.e. my writings (Apostolikon and Evangelion), as divinely inspired?"

The typical words by one who would like his own writings to be recommended in a community.
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Giuseppe
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Re: A good argument to believe that the epistles were genuine

Post by Giuseppe »

I see that prof Vinzent makes indirectly the same point when he writes:

What is historically probable is that he possessed epistolary material for the 7 letters, just as he possessed Jesus material, from which he created partial collections for his New Testament, which he structured similarly and which also both reflect his editorial language.

What does this mean for our insight into the 1st century? Especially for your question about the Christian movement and, I would add, its protagonists? In "Christ's Torah" I have already pointed out that the editor also includes elements (such as "bringing fire/conflict") that contradict his own idea. This suggests that there is a previous source for this material, which the editor traces back to the Jesus of his gospel. Similar elements that seem to contradict his idea can also be found in the letters of Paul in the 10-letter collection. Here, too, the editor cites Paul as the source. Can we trust this information? It seems to me, as I have already written, that the editor was not someone who produced pseudonymous fictions - a significant difference to the canonical editors, for whom pseudonymity and fictionality are characteristic features.

Hence, there was:
  • 1) disturbing material for Marcion in *Ev;
  • 2) disturbing material for Marcion in the Apostolikon.
The historicist prof Vinzent takes (1) to mean that Jesus existed. I take (1) to mean that previous gospels preceded *Ev, dated back to the primitive gospel of which the epilogue can be reconstructed here.

But both I and prof Vinzent take (2) to mean that the epistles were for the most part original.
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Re: A good argument to believe that the epistles were genuine

Post by Peter Kirby »

Giuseppe wrote: Mon Feb 26, 2024 6:34 am
Peter Kirby wrote: Sun Feb 25, 2024 1:10 pm
Giuseppe wrote: Sun Feb 25, 2024 10:55 am It is said that Marcion introduced the Apostolikon in Rome to recommend himself in that community.
What is the reference here?
I have found this in Irenaeus, about an episode probably interpreted as being happened in Rome :


And Polycarp himself replied to Marcion, who met him on one occasion, and said, Do you know me? I do know you, the first-born of Satan.

https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103303.htm


It seems to me from this passage that Marcion was addressing the his propaganda to the Roman community. "Do you know me?" should be better translated as: "Do you recognize me, i.e. my writings (Apostolikon and Evangelion), as divinely inspired?"

The typical words by one who would like his own writings to be recommended in a community.
Sorry, that doesn't follow.
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