Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote: ↑Fri Mar 01, 2024 6:07 amI suspect that the first Marcionites quite naturally thought of their Jesus as “Christos”. Of course, I don't want to rule out the possibility that later followers preferred to call him Chrestos.
Secret Alias wrote: ↑Fri Mar 01, 2024 6:27 amBased on what evidence? Like most people want everyone else to share the same opinions with them. But the evidence from the actual sources makes clear the term "Christos" was alien to the Marcionites starting with the archaeological evidence from Deir Ali, Syria.
The inscription contains nomina sacra for:
Lord - kyrios
Savior - soter
Jesus - iesous
But "Chrestos" was fully written out -> it was not a holy name for the Marcionites
Secret Alias wrote: ↑Tue May 30, 2023 9:10 amThe fourth century Marcionite synagogue inscription:
‘συναγωγη Μαρκιωνιστων κωμ(ης) Λεβαβων του κ(υριο)υ και σ(ωτη)ρ(ος) Ιη(σου) Χρηστου προνοια Παυλου πρεσβ(υτερου) του λχ᾽ἐτους’; Philippe Le Bas, Voyage Archéologique en Grèce et en Asie Mineur. Inscriptions III i (Paris: Firmin Didot Frères, 1870) no. 2558, pp. 582–4 ¼ OGIS 608; see below, p. 387.
These Marcionites will probably have read "Chrestos" into everything if they found the nomen sacrum ΧΣ in any writings, which stands for the holy name "Christos". But for them, "Chrestos" wasn't even a holy name, just a way to bypass the "Christ".
I have no problem with the conclusion that the Marcionites misinterpreted or misrepresented the abbreviation for Christ, just don't think this argument gets us there.
Peter Kirby wrote: ↑Sat Mar 02, 2024 2:09 am
The casual repetition of the phrase "nomina sacra" has led to much carelessness in these matters. In other words, I blame scholars for this.
I may be able to find some relevant data, given the ongoing construction of my "database" here.
Yes, you definitely need to rethink the concept and blame the scholars so that speculation can continue
I don't see why we should think that the writing out of Chrestos indicates that the Marcionites "misinterpreted or misrepresented the abbreviation for Christ".
What if they simply made no use of scriptures that used the nomina sacra XS to begin with. All of their scriptures originated with IS Chrestos and it was the orthodox that replaced Chrestos with XS?
Has KK seen a lot of inscriptions? What do they all have in common? Abbreviations. When words are abbreviated on public inscriptions they are properly called abbreviations.
Might it be possible that there can be more than one reason for some spellings?
I have previously written--and still think--that some (not all) people were more familiar with the good-word than the an anointed-word, so spelled the good way.
Or just mixed up or misunderstood or conflated words. Or thought x also has y characteristic.
Also, I have previously written--and still think--that spelling then was not a universally-settled matter (that seems obvious), and some variations cannot properly bear excess interpretation, especially out of context.
Here is a very tentative, mere iffy possibility, suggestion, wondering, don't hold me too it, I'm just acting as a messenger, excuse the comma splices:
someone, sometime may have chosen an alternate, variant spelling so as not to spell a sacred name, sort of like adonai or hashem?
Maybe, maybe not.
PS, SA's attack on KK is unworthy.
Last edited by StephenGoranson on Sat Mar 02, 2024 7:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote: ↑Fri Mar 01, 2024 6:07 am
I suspect that the first Marcionites quite naturally thought of their Jesus as “Christos”. Of course, I don't want to rule out the possibility that later followers preferred to call him Chrestos.
Usually the construction of more complex hypotheses to avoid the simplest conclusion is reckoned "ad hoc" and considered more speculative.
Given the emphasis otherwise on simplicity in synoptic problem solutions, this search for hypothetical ur-Marcionites is not totally in keeping with your typical good sense.
StephenGoranson wrote: ↑Sat Mar 02, 2024 7:18 am
PS, SA's attack on KK is unworthy.
Thanks for the kind words, Stephen. I'll let those experts do their thing.
If anyone is interested in facts and what such inscriptions looked like in a Christian prayer house with nomina sacra for God, Jesus and Christ, I would like to point them to the mosaic from Megiddo. .