Was Josephus a Christian?

[GakuseiDon]

Looking over what you've written, I don't disagree with much of it, other than the idea of how much this was a part of Flavian propaganda (if I am reading your points correctly). So: yes, Josephus didn't see Vespasian as the Messiah;

What do you mean by that?

By that I mean the Davidic Messiah who will bring about God's kingdom on earth as prophecised in Hebrew Scriptures. But IMHO he probably thought that God had appointed Vespasian as the ruler of the world, just as God had done with previous conquerors like Cyrus the Great and Alexander the Great. In that case, Josephus expected the Davidic Messiah was still to come.

no, it wasn't a cynical attempt to subvert the Jewish nation to accept Roman rule (if that is what you are suggesting).

I didn't talk about this.

My apologies.

[Peter Kirby]

Looking over what you've written, I don't disagree with much of it, other than the idea of how much this was a part of Flavian propaganda (if I am reading your points correctly). So: yes, Josephus didn't see Vespasian as the Messiah;

What do you mean by that?

By that I mean the Davidic Messiah who will bring about God's kingdom on earth as prophecised in Hebrew Scriptures. But IMHO he probably thought that God had appointed Vespasian as the ruler of the world, just as God had done with previous conquerors like Cyrus the Great and Alexander the Great. In that case, Josephus expected the Davidic Messiah was still to come.

I'm curious, is there anything to suggest that Josephus expected that there would be the Davidic Messiah who was still to come?

[GakuseiDon]

I'm curious, is there anything to suggest that Josephus expected that there would be the Davidic Messiah who was still to come?

I think there are hints of it, yes. In his Antiquities of the Jews:

Book 7, Chapter 2:

2. When these things were brought to this conclusion, all the principal men of the Hebrew people came to David to Hebron, with the heads of thousands, and other rulers, and delivered themselves up to him, putting him in mind of the good-will they had borne to him in Saul's lifetime, and the respect they then had not ceased to pay him when he was captain of a thousand, as also that he was chosen of God by Samuel the prophet, he and his sons...

Samuel was the prophet who had anointed David as king (1 Samuel 16). Josephus describes the chosen as being David "and his sons".

Book 7, Chapter 4:

But God appeared to Nathan that very night, and commanded him to say to David... when he had lived a long life, there should be a temple built by a son of his, who should take the kingdom after him, and should be called Solomon, whom he promised to provide for, as a father provides for his
son, by preserving the kingdom for his son's posterity, and delivering it to them; but that he would still punish him, if he sinned, with diseases and barrenness of land. When David understood this from the prophet, and was overjoyful at this knowledge of the sure continuance of the dominion to his posterity, and that his house should be splendid, and very famous, he came to the ark, and fell down on his face, and began to adore God, and to return thanks to him for all his benefits, as well for those that he had already bestowed upon him in raising him from a low state, and from the employment of a shepherd, to so great dignity of dominion and glory; as for those also which he had promised to his posterity...

Might Josephus had thought that God's promise to David had failed in his descendants? Maybe. But he seems to be alluding to verses that suggest that God had promised David that his descendants would rule.

[Secret Alias]

What did Jesus have to do with David? What moral excellence did David embody?

[Peter Kirby]

I'm curious, is there anything to suggest that Josephus expected that there would be the Davidic Messiah who was still to come?

I think there are hints of it, yes. In his Antiquities of the Jews:

Book 7, Chapter 2:

2. When these things were brought to this conclusion, all the principal men of the Hebrew people came to David to Hebron, with the heads of thousands, and other rulers, and delivered themselves up to him, putting him in mind of the good-will they had borne to him in Saul's lifetime, and the respect they then had not ceased to pay him when he was captain of a thousand, as also that he was chosen of God by Samuel the prophet, he and his sons...

Samuel was the prophet who had anointed David as king (1 Samuel 16). Josephus describes the chosen as being David "and his sons".

Book 7, Chapter 4:

But God appeared to Nathan that very night, and commanded him to say to David... when he had lived a long life, there should be a temple built by a son of his, who should take the kingdom after him, and should be called Solomon, whom he promised to provide for, as a father provides for his
son, by preserving the kingdom for his son's posterity, and delivering it to them; but that he would still punish him, if he sinned, with diseases and barrenness of land. When David understood this from the prophet, and was overjoyful at this knowledge of the sure continuance of the dominion to his posterity, and that his house should be splendid, and very famous, he came to the ark, and fell down on his face, and began to adore God, and to return thanks to him for all his benefits, as well for those that he had already bestowed upon him in raising him from a low state, and from the employment of a shepherd, to so great dignity of dominion and glory; as for those also which he had promised to his posterity...

Might Josephus had thought that God's promise to David had failed in his descendants? Maybe. But he seems to be alluding to verses that suggest that God had promised David that his descendants would rule.

Perhaps this was fulfilled by David's dynasty. There are a lot of them in the Bible.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Davidic_line

[Peter Kirby]

Might be interesting to contrast how little controversy this answer engendered here:

https://www.reddit.com/r/AcademicBiblic ... e_messiah/

[Peter Kirby]

But now what did the most elevate them in undertaking this war, was an ambiguous oracle, that was also found in their sacred writings; how “About that time one, from their country, should become governor of the habitable earth.” The Jews took this prediction to belong to themselves in particular: and many of the wise men were thereby deceived in their determination. Now this oracle certainly denoted the government of Vespasian: who was appointed emperor in Judea. However, it is not possible for men to avoid fate: although they see it beforehand. But these men interpreted some of these signals according to their own pleasure; and some of them they utterly despised: until their madness was demonstrated, both by the taking of their city, and their own destruction.

The logic is that the "Judean king" (or if you like "Davidic king") fanatics were wrong. If we want to yoke together the words "Davidic Messiah" (and we can), the logic is that there is no "Davidic Messiah" predicted. The logic is further that the prediction is about the one who was proclaimed emperor in Judea (hence the misunderstanding), which was Vespasian.

That's the logic of the passage, which is written in support of the propaganda of the Flavian dynasty.

IDK why this is made to be so complicated.

[Secret Alias]

Because the humanities are rarely approached as science.