Was Josephus a Christian?

[John2]

I'm not a believer, and no one is stopping you from typing all you like about the idea that Josephus used the Shiloh prophecy.

[John2]

I can't find Ben's thread, but if memory serves, one piece of evidence that Josephus had Daniel in mind (in addition to the timeline issue) is that he calls Daniel the greatest of the prophets (can't remember where offhand) and in Ant. 10.11.7 he says, "In the very same manner Daniel also wrote concerning the Roman government, and that our country should be made desolate by them."

[Secret Alias]

How does that trump Josephus identifying Vespasian as Shiloh? It's incredibly you to suggest Ben over Josephus to understand Josephus.

[John2]

How does that trump Josephus identifying Vespasian as Shiloh? It's incredibly you to suggest Ben over Josephus to understand Josephus.

If it works for you, then have at it. Various ideas have been proposed (the Star prophecy is another) and I've thought various things over the years and like Dan. 9 now. But Shiloh is a viable option, sure.

[Ken Olson]

Josephus Jewish War 6.5.4:

But now what did the most elevate them in undertaking this war, was an ambiguous oracle, that was also found in their sacred writings; how “About that time one, from their country, should become governor of the habitable earth.” The Jews took this prediction to belong to themselves in particular: and many of the wise men were thereby deceived in their determination. Now this oracle certainly denoted the government of Vespasian: who was appointed emperor in Judea. However, it is not possible for men to avoid fate: although they see it beforehand. But these men interpreted some of these signals according to their own pleasure; and some of them they utterly despised: until their madness was demonstrated, both by the taking of their city, and their own destruction.

Sorry about the translation here. I think the ambiguous oracles found in the sacred writings was very likely not not intended to be a direct quotation and should not be in quotation marks.

Here are two other witnesses to the ambiguous oracle from the sacred writings:

Tacitus Histories 5.13

13 1 Prodigies had indeed occurred, but to avert them either by victims or by vows is held unlawful by a people which, though prone to superstition, is opposed to all propitiatory rites.​43 Contending hosts were seen meeting in the skies, arms flashed, and suddenly the temple was illumined with fire from the clouds. Of a sudden the doors of the shrine opened and a superhuman voice cried: "The gods are departing": at the same moment the mighty stir of their going was heard.​44 Few interpreted these omens as fearful; the majority firmly believed that their ancient priestly writings contained the prophecy that this was the very time when the East should grow strong and that men starting from Judea should possess the world.​45 This mysterious prophecy had in reality pointed to Vespasian and Titus, but the common people, as is the way of human ambition, interpreted these great destinies in their own favour, and could not be turned to the truth even by adversity.

Suetonius Vespasian 4.5:

5 There had spread over all the Orient an old and established belief, that it was fated at that time for men coming from Judaea to rule the world. This prediction, referring to the emperor of Rome, as afterwards appeared from the event, the people of Judaea took to themselves; accordingly they revolted and after killing their governor, they routed the consular ruler of Syria as well, when he came to the rescue, and took one of his eagles. Since to put down this rebellion required a considerable army with a leader of no little enterprise, yet one to whom so great power could be entrusted without risk, Vespasian was chosen for the task, both as a man of tried energy and as one in no wise to be feared because of the obscurity of his family and name.

Can anyone identify the ambiguous oracle from the sacred writings of the Jews / their ancient priestly writings as a specific prophecy from the Old Testament?

Some have argued that Tacitus and/or Suetonius are dependent on Josephus Jewish Wr here. I think it more likely they are dependent on common sources - the Commentaries of Vespasian and Titus, and possibly the Continuation of the History of Aufidius Bassus by Pliny the Elder (who probably used the Commentaries himself)

We also have three records of a prediction or prophecy made (or delivered) by Josephus himself:

Josephus Jewish War 3.399:

[399] When Josephus heard him give those orders, he said that he had somewhat in his mind that he would willingly say to himself alone. When therefore they were all ordered to withdraw, excepting Titus and two of their friends, he said, "Thou, O Vespasian, thinkest no more than that thou hast taken Josephus himself captive; but I come to thee as a messenger of greater tidings; for had not I been sent by God to thee, I knew what was the law of the Jews in this case? and how it becomes generals to die. Dost thou send me to Nero? For why? Are Nero's successors till they come to thee still alive? Thou, O Vespasian, art Caesar and emperor, thou, and this thy son. Bind me now still faster, and keep me for thyself, for thou, O Caesar, are not only lord over me, but over the land and the sea, and all mankind; and certainly I deserve to be kept in closer custody than I now am in, in order to be punished, if I rashly affirm any thing of God." When he had said this, Vespasian at present did not believe him, but supposed that Josephus said this as a cunning trick, in order to his own preservation; but in a little time he was convinced, and believed what he said to be true, God himself erecting his expectations, so as to think of obtaining the empire, and by other signs fore-showing his advancement. He also found Josephus to have spoken truth on other occasions; for one of those friends that were present at that secret conference said to Josephus, "I cannot but wonder how thou couldst not foretell to the people of Jotapata that they should be taken, nor couldst foretell this captivity which hath happened to thyself, unless what thou now sayest be a vain thing, in order to avoid the rage that is risen against thyself." To which Josephus replied, "I did foretell to the people of Jotapata that they would be taken on the forty-seventh day, and that I should be caught alive by the Romans." Now when Vespasian had inquired of the captives privately about these predictions, he found them to be true, and then he began to believe those that concerned himself. Yet did he not set Josephus at liberty from his hands, but bestowed on him suits of clothes, and other precious gifts; he treated him also in a very obliging manner, and continued so to do, Titus still joining his interest ill the honors that were done him.

Suetonius Vespasian 5.5-7:

5 He dreamed in Greece that the beginning of good fortune for himself and his family would come as soon as Nero had a tooth extracted; and on the next day it came to pass that a physician walked into the hall​15 and showed him a tooth which he had just then taken out. 6 When he consulted the oracle of the god of Carmel in Judaea, the lots were highly encouraging, promising that whatever he planned or wished however great it might be, would come to pass; and one of his high-born prisoners, Josephus by name, as he was being put in chains, declared most confidently that he would soon be released by the same man, who would then, however, be emperor. 7 Omens were also reported from Rome: Nero in his latter days was admonished in a dream to take the sacred chariot of Jupiter Optimus Maximus from its shrine to the house of Vespasian and from there to the Circus. Not long after this, too, when Galba was on his way to the elections which gave him his second consul­ship, a statue of the Deified Julius of its own accord turned towards the East; and on the field of Betriacum, before the battle began, two eagles fought in the sight of all, and when one was vanquished, a third came from the direction of the rising sun and drove off the victor.

Dio Cassius Roman History 65.1

1 Such was the course of these events; and following them Vespasian was declared emperor by the senate also, and Titus and Domitian were given the title of Caesars. The consular office was assumed by Vespasian and Titus while the former was in Egypt and the latter in Palestine. 2 Now portents and dreams had come to Vespasian pointing to the sovereignty long beforehand. Thus, as he was eating dinner on his country estate, where most of his time was spent, an ox approached him, knelt down and placed his head beneath his feet. On another occasion, when he was also eating, a dog dropped a human hand under the table. 3 And a conspicuous cypress tree, which had been uprooted and overthrown by a violent wind, stood upright again on the following day by its own power and continued to flourish. From a dream he learned that when Nero Caesar should lose a tooth, he himself should be emperor. This prophecy about the tooth became a reality on the following day; and Nero himself in his dreams once thought that he had brought the car of Jupiter to Vespasian's house. These portents needed interpretation; 4 but not so the saying of a Jew named Josephus: he, having earlier been captured by Vespasian and imprisoned, laughed and said: "You may imprison me now, but a year from now, when you have become emperor, you will release me."

For these three passages, does Josephus say any more than that he foretold that Vespasian would become emperor (i.e., do we need a Messianic interpretation here)?

Best,

Ken

[John2]

Does Josephus say any more than that he foretold that Vespasian would become emperor (i.e., do we need a Messianic interpretation here)?

I still think so. All we can do is speculate, but I feel comfortable with the idea that the "governor of the habitable earth" predicted in the OT that Jews applied to themselves = "the Messiah," just like "mighty one" in Is. 10:34 = "king" = "the Messiah" in Judaism (e.g., ARN 4.5), as Vermes notes here:


https://www.google.com/books/edition/Sc ... frontcover

[Secret Alias]

This is so fucking annoying. Stop using Jewish terminology. That's sectarian terminology. It's not hard.

You can grab 100 people and tell me that 2 + 2 isn't 4. I don't fucking care.

In Hebrew the number 335 is actually written שלה.

ש 300
ל 30
5 ה

שלה is also Shilo in many manuscripts and it is Aramaic possessive pronoun which was used to explain "Shiloh" to the various Greek translators.

VESPASIANUS transcribed letter by letter into the Hebrew alphabet is שלה or 335.

It's not fucking rocket science what prophecy Josephus had in mind.

Like I said. Get 100 people to argue that 2 + 2 isn't 4 doesn't change that 2 + 2 is 4. Josephus was applying Genesis 49:10 to Vespasian. No expertise needed here. Keep up your bullshit distraction. I will repeat this to the end of time.

[Ken Olson]

Does Josephus say any more than that he foretold that Vespasian would become emperor (i.e., do we need a Messianic interpretation here)?

I still think so. All we can do is speculate, but I feel comfortable with the idea that the "governor of the habitable earth" predicted in the OT that Jews applied to themselves = "the Messiah," just like "mighty one" in Is. 10:34 = "king" = "the Messiah" in Judaism (e.g., ARN 4.5), as Vermes notes here:


https://www.google.com/books/edition/Sc ... frontcover

I mean that question (now edited) to pertain to the last three passages about Josephus' own prediction that Vespasian would become emperor.

The question I was asking about the first three passages - the ambiguous oracle from the sacred scriptures - was if it could be identified with any specific Old Testament prophetc.

Best,

Ken

[Secret Alias]

This source says that שלה is the dominant reading of "twenty - eight Jewish manuscripts , and in all the Samaritan manuscripts." https://books.google.com/books?id=lP_DE ... ts&f=false Not sure if this is true.

[Secret Alias]

Josephus identified Vespasian as the world ruler because (a) his name was 335 (שלה) and (b) he took the scepter away from Judah or he appeared when the scepter was taken away from Judah.