Was Josephus a Christian?

[John2]

I don't think so, and neither did Origen ("though not believing in Jesus as Christ"), which seals the deal for me. But I take issue with the idea that Josephus "couldn't have" been a Christian (or written the TF) because he was Jewish. Early Jewish Christians didn't stop being Jewish because they believed that Jesus was the Messiah, nor have modern messianic Jews (when I was observant, it seemed like a quarter of the synagogue were messianic Jews (who read the OT and NT in Hebrew). So I don't follow that argument.

Did Josephus stop being Jewish because he believed that Vespasian was "the Messiah"? Of course not. And the same goes for belief in Jesus (if there is anything to the TF).

But after reading some recent threads here, I've come to think that Origen's remark about the James passage in Ant. 20.200 is based on his "reading into" Josephus (thanks to GDon), and for me, this means that the James passage is genuine and that Josephus "must have" said something elsewhere about Jesus that gave Origen the impression that he did not believe in Jesus as Christ. In other words, to my eyes, there "must have" been some kind of TF.

So this is kind of a double-sided thread, with one side suggesting that the "Josephus couldn't have been a Christian because he was a Jew" idea doesn't have any merit, and the other that Josephus "must have" said something about Jesus that gave Origen the impression that he didn't believe in Jesus.

I used to think the latter could have been because Josephus said that Vespasian was the Messiah (my word, but I think that's what he means) in the Jewish War, but I have yet to see any evidence that Origen knew the Jewish War. So all things considered, if the James passage in Josephus is genuine, then Josephus "must have" said something else about Jesus, given that the passage seems to suggest that (as commonly argued), along with Origen's impression that Josephus did not believe in Jesus.

If there wasn't any kind of TF and Origen did not know the Jewish War, then what gave him the impression that Josephus did not believe in Jesus as Christ? Did he subscribe to the "a proud Jew couldn't be a Christian" idea? Was he reading something into Josephus (as he appears to do about the James passage)? Was it just a common belief in his time? Or was it something else? Otherwise, I'm inclined to think that there was some kind of TF, a neutral or negative one that Christians would not have wanted to mention that got altered to the TF as we know it.

[John2]

This blogger suggests that "Origen is taking Josephus to task over what he regards as statements of unbelief on the latter’s part in the words 'called Christ,'" which seems nice and simple to me, but is there anything negative about saying that Jesus was "called Christ"? And even if not, is it something that Origen could "read into" by seeing it as an expression of disbelief? That would be a great solution to me. Then we wouldn't need to imagine a neutral or negative TF.

https://gettingtothetruthofthings.blogs ... -that.html

[John2]

And if this is the case, it would suggest that "called Christ" in Ant. 20.200 is original and not an interpolation (unless someone added it by Origen's time, which seems unlikely but not impossible, I guess).

[Secret Alias]

I think the historical Josephus was a prominent Jew who wrote an Aramaic outline "Vita" that was developed in to "Jewish War" by Greek speaking "assistants" at a later date. cf. SHAYE J. D. COHEN : Josephus in Galilee and Rome : His Vita and Development as a Historian . Diss . , Columbia University, New York 1975. Publ .: Leiden 1979

[John2]

I think the historical Josephus was a prominent Jew who wrote an Aramaic outline "Vita" that was developed in to "Jewish War" by Greek speaking "assistants" at a later date. cf. SHAYE J. D. COHEN : Josephus in Galilee and Rome : His Vita and Development as a Historian . Diss . , Columbia University, New York 1975. Publ .: Leiden 1979

But isn't this what Josephus says in the Jewish War, that he wrote it (in Hebrew or Aramaic) for Mesopotamian Jews and had it translated by assistants into Greek because he wasn't proficient in Greek? Or are you (and now Cohen) suggesting there's more to it than that?

[John2]

In any event, I appreciate the Cohen reference and will read all I can of it here:


https://www.google.com/books/edition/Jo ... frontcover

[Ken Olson]

The earliest known extant work which claims that the Testimonium Flavianum is not the work of Josephus is Lucas Osiander Epitomes Historiae Ecclesiasticae Centuria I. II. III. (1592)

Testimonium vero Iosephi de Christo ego omnino supposititium esse credo et ab aliquo sciolo ipsius libris interru. Si enim Iosephus ita de Christo sensisset, vt Testimonium illud prae se fert, Iosephus fuisset Christianus, cum tamen in omnibus eius scriptis nihil prorus, quod salterm Christianismum redoleat, reperiri queat.

But the testimony of Josephus concerning Christ I believe to be entirely spurious, and to be interpolated by some scoundrel in his books. For if Josephus had felt in such a manner about Christ as that Testimonium manifests, Josephus would have been a Christian, when in fact in all his writings, there is nothing at all that savors in the least of Christianity to be found.

[Osiander, Epitomes, Century I, Book II, Chapter VII, p. 17 (p. 30 of the PDF)]

You can download a PDF of the book free from Google Books:

https://books.google.com/books?id=s29TA ... &q&f=false

There is some evidence that some Jews in the Middle Ages rejected the Testimonium, but it comes to us second hand through Christian sources and we do not know what the Jewish sources themselves were claiming about the passage.

Best,

Ken

[maryhelena]

I don't think so, and neither did Origen ("though not believing in Jesus as Christ"), which seals the deal for me. But I take issue with the idea that Josephus "couldn't have" been a Christian (or written the TF) because he was Jewish. Early Jewish Christians didn't stop being Jewish because they believed that Jesus was the Messiah, nor have modern messianic Jews (when I was observant, it seemed like a quarter of the synagogue were messianic Jews (who read the OT and NT in Hebrew). So I don't follow that argument.

Was Josephus a Christian ?

Methinks to answer that question one would have to know what a Christian believes. If a Christian believes the gospel Jesus was a historical figure (of whatever variant) then they will look to the Josephan TF, the James passage and the JtB passage as historical evidence for their belief. If one does not believe in a historical Jesus then the question of whether or not Josephus had some connection in supporting the writing of the gospel story would be an interesting avenue to explore.

As to what a Christian is - a well known atheist, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, recently said she had become a Christian. Richard Dawkins was quick off the bat and wrote an Open Letter to her. He has since read the Open letter on youtube. (Subtitles available on video.

[Ken Olson]

I have a blog post from November 9. 2021 discussing Origen's claims that Josephus was unbelieving in Jesus as the Christ and did not accept Jesus as the Christ:

https://kenolsonsblog.wordpress.com/202 ... as-christ/

Best,

Ken

[John2]

The earliest known extant work which claims that the Testimonium Flavianum is not the work of Josephus is Lucas Osiander Epitomes Historiae Ecclesiasticae Centuria I. II. III. (1592)

Testimonium vero Iosephi de Christo ego omnino supposititium esse credo et ab aliquo sciolo ipsius libris interru. Si enim Iosephus ita de Christo sensisset, vt Testimonium illud prae se fert, Iosephus fuisset Christianus, cum tamen in omnibus eius scriptis nihil prorus, quod salterm Christianismum redoleat, reperiri queat.

But the testimony of Josephus concerning Christ I believe to be entirely spurious, and to be interpolated by some scoundrel in his books. For if Josephus had felt in such a manner about Christ as that Testimonium manifests, Josephus would have been a Christian, when in fact in all his writings, there is nothing at all that savors in the least of Christianity to be found.

[Osiander, Epitomes, Century I, Book II, Chapter VII, p. 17 (p. 30 of the PDF)]

That's interesting but doesn't change my view that Josephus (or any Jew) could have believed that Jesus was the Messiah while identifying as Jewish. I don't think the TF is genuine though, but even if it was, I don't buy the "a Jew couldn't have written it" argument.