Any pre-325 CE writings where Jesus' historicity was doubted?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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GakuseiDon
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Any pre-325 CE writings where Jesus' historicity was doubted?

Post by GakuseiDon »

I thought I'd start a new thread here rather than interrupt the one here: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=11683
Giuseppe wrote: Mon Mar 25, 2024 9:42 pmWhy is this important (replying to Joseph D L)? Because I am tired to hear the apologetical motive that none doubted about the historicity of Jesus in the Antiquity.
Giuseppe believes that in Ignatius' letter to the Philadelphians, his critics question the historicity of Jesus. Fair enough, I'll leave arguments on that topic to run in the other thread.

Leaving Giuseppe's example aside, are there any examples of texts expressing doubt of the historicity of Jesus before the First Council of Nicaea in 325 CE? I don't remember any examples from Carrier and Doherty's books, but I will review them when I get the chance.

I don't remember there being any overt examples, but are there any hints in early texts before 325 CE that might be taken to question the historicity of Jesus?

By 'historical Jesus', I mean a figure living around 30 CE who inspired the Gospel stories, even if the Gospel stories themselves are false. So someone questioning the validity of the Gospel stories (like the Emperor Julian in the 4th C CE) isn't necessarily questioning the historicity of the person.

(Personally I don't see this as impacting the HJ/MJ debate, unless the texts are very early. Someone in 230 CE describing what did or didn't happen in 30 CE probably doesn't provide much evidence of what happened in 30 CE.)
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maryhelena
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Re: Any pre-325 CE writings where Jesus' historicity was doubted?

Post by maryhelena »

GakuseiDon wrote: Tue Mar 26, 2024 2:01 am I thought I'd start a new thread here rather than interrupt the one here: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=11683


By 'historical Jesus', I mean a figure living around 30 CE who inspired the Gospel stories, even if the Gospel stories themselves are false.
Was your 'figure living around 30 CE who inspired the Gospel stories' crucified ?
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GakuseiDon
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Re: Any pre-325 CE writings where Jesus' historicity was doubted?

Post by GakuseiDon »

maryhelena wrote: Tue Mar 26, 2024 2:11 amWas your 'figure living around 30 CE who inspired the Gospel stories' crucified ?
Hmmm... not necessarily I suppose. It's the time-travel test: if you can take a time machine back to around that time period could you meet the person who inspired the development of Christianity? So I'm looking for early texts that questioned that person's historicity.
rgprice
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Re: Any pre-325 CE writings where Jesus' historicity was doubted?

Post by rgprice »

A couple statements come to mind:

2 Peter 1: 16 For we did not follow cleverly devised tales when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of His majesty.

Also, from Justin Martyr, DIALOGUE WITH TRYPHO:

But Christ--if He has indeed been born, and exists anywhere--is unknown, and does not even know Himself, and has no power until Elijah come to anoint Him, and make Him manifest to all. And you, having accepted a groundless report, invent a Christ for yourselves, and for his sake are inconsiderately perishing."

"I excuse and forgive you, my friend," I said. "For you know not what you say, but have been persuaded by teachers who do not understand the Scriptures; and you speak, like a diviner whatever comes into your mind. But if you are willing to listen to an account of Him, how we have not been deceived, and shall not cease to confess Him,--although men's reproaches be heaped upon us, although the most terrible tyrant compel us to deny Him,--I shall prove to you as you stand here that we have not believed empty fables, or words without any foundation but words filled with the Spirit of God, and big with power, and flourishing with grace."

Keep in mind that the writings we have from this period are all very one sided. We don't have any of the writings of any of the critics of orthodox Christianity. Other than the NHL, we have pretty much nothing from non-orthodox Christians. It would of course be very interesting to read the works of Celsus, etc.
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GakuseiDon
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Re: Any pre-325 CE writings where Jesus' historicity was doubted?

Post by GakuseiDon »

maryhelena wrote: Tue Mar 26, 2024 3:46 amAs you indicated above re my question on crucifixion - ''not necessarily I suppose' - then, I would suggest, that is a good starting point when looking for a figure, during the time of Tiberius and Pilate, that might have left his footprint.....
Fair point, but this thread isn't about looking for such a figure or his footprint. The opposite, in fact.
dabber
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Re: Any pre-325 CE writings where Jesus' historicity was doubted?

Post by dabber »

Hi the issue is not that his historicity was doubted then but that the earliest authors, Paul, Hebrews, Revelation write as if he was a mythological person with no knowledge of the gospels. This strongly implies the gospels and the historical jesus came later.
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Leucius Charinus
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Re: Any pre-325 CE writings where Jesus' historicity was doubted?

Post by Leucius Charinus »

"For many deceivers are entered into the world,
who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh.
This is a deceiver and an antichrist."
(2 John 1:7)
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Giuseppe
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Re: Any pre-325 CE writings where Jesus' historicity was doubted?

Post by Giuseppe »

The Naassenes denied that the early apostles (Mariamne and James) saw his form:

We have heard his voice, but we have not seen his form.

Pseudo-Hyppolytus, 5.8.14
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Giuseppe
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Re: Any pre-325 CE writings where Jesus' historicity was doubted?

Post by Giuseppe »

Ignatius, Epistle to the Smyrnaeans, according to both Solomon Reinach and Earl Doherty:

Christian docetism therefore seems very clearly a way of reconciling the Christian idea of the divine and spiritual Christ, without which there is no Christianity, with a Jewish x. In what way could this x be formulated by the Jews, whose pernicious influence these docetic Christians suffer? Evidently so: "The Jesus of whom you speak to us was not a descendant of David; he was not a son of Mary; he did not come into the world; he did not eat or drink; he was not baptized by John; he was not crucified at the time of Pilate and Herod; he is completely unknown to us". This was not docetism, for the very idea of a "docetic Jew" is absurd, but the diffuse denial of Jesus' existence in the time when Christians placed his life and death.

The radical docetism of the Christians of the first century is therefore a compromise to respond to an insolent denial that took place, which was significant, not in Ephesus or Alexandria, but in the very theatre of Jesus' earthly activity, not one or two centuries later, but almost in the aftermath of his death.

"Yes," said these docetists to the Jews, "you did not know Jesus in the flesh, for the reason that he did not exist according to the flesh; but the apostles and the crowds of the faithful heard him, they saw him; they saw him on the cross at the time of Pilate; they saw him risen. He was a divine ghost, an ethereal and all spiritual being whose eyes have seen, whose ears have heard his voice, but who could not be grasped with his hand".

In the presence of the denials of the Palestinian Jews, it seems that Christians had a simpler way to make them shut their mouths without resorting to the subtleties of docetism: it was to add, in support of Jesus in the flesh, testimonia, authentic documents, for example an act of the synedrium or the report of Pilate. Why did they not do so? I hesitate to answer; but perhaps there were no authentic documents, or perhaps they had not yet dreamed of producing others. This would explain many things: the antecedence of docetism in relation to the Gospels, as Saint Jerome knew; the clearly anti-docetist nature of our four Gospels, even of the Fourth; the Church's susceptibility in this matter and the condemnation of the Gospel of Peter, because isolated signs of docetism were found there.

The author of an excellent life of Jesus according to the apocrypha, Mr. Walter Bauer, says that there is no trace in early Christian or anti-Christian literature of that paradox already familiar to Voltaire and rejected by him, of those who deny the historical reality of Jesus. In fact, if such subversive texts had existed, the Church would not have allowed them to reach us, except in the slums of Jewish literature, where Toledoth's stupid calumnies rightly seemed harmless. But it seems to me impossible not to conclude, as much from the assertions of radical docetism as from the reproach made to docetists coming from Judaism, the existence of a Jewish party, contemporary with the apostles and still powerful at the beginning of the 2nd century, which declared that they knew nothing about Jesus. Once again, those were not docetists, intoxicated by the idea of the divine Christ, but people who were resolutely hostile to the idea of the divinity of Jesus and who also contested the earthly Jesus. Docetist judaized in giving up believing in the Jesus of the flesh; they christianized in affirming the spiritual Christ even more strongly. To these dangerous men, Ignatius still preferred the circumcised, who, without believing in the divinity of Jesus, at least admit that he existed and died under Pilate. Ignatius is right; he is right again when he cries out, "If it is an appearance what has been done by the Lord, then why have I offered myself up to death? To suffer with him all I endure!"

It will perhaps be objected that Docetism was born in Palestine because the Jews, while waiting for the glorious Messiah, were more scandalized than the Gentiles by the ignominious death on the cross. But it would have been enough, to answer them, to admit that the crucified Christ was but a ghost, who had stripped his mortal body at the moment of the Transfiguration. Now, the texts of Saint Ignatius prove that this radical docetism applied to the whole life of Jesus, from his birth until his death. Therefore, it is not the "scandal of the cross" that could suggest this.

The conclusions I have just set out are serious; they seem to offer the equivalent of a 1st century Palestinian document that would support Benjamin Smith's intransigent skepticism. I am asking only to see them discussed and refuted; I respect and listen willingly to theologians; I only ask them to answer me with arguments, not offenses, because I already owe to their liberality a large collection of the latter and because I need the former to enlighten me.

(freely translated from "Questions on Docetism", in Revue moderniste, 1912, p. 184-188)
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Re: Any pre-325 CE writings where Jesus' historicity was doubted?

Post by Chrissy Hansen »

rgprice wrote: Tue Mar 26, 2024 3:29 am A couple statements come to mind:

2 Peter 1: 16 For we did not follow cleverly devised tales when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of His majesty.

Also, from Justin Martyr, DIALOGUE WITH TRYPHO:

But Christ--if He has indeed been born, and exists anywhere--is unknown, and does not even know Himself, and has no power until Elijah come to anoint Him, and make Him manifest to all. And you, having accepted a groundless report, invent a Christ for yourselves, and for his sake are inconsiderately perishing."

"I excuse and forgive you, my friend," I said. "For you know not what you say, but have been persuaded by teachers who do not understand the Scriptures; and you speak, like a diviner whatever comes into your mind. But if you are willing to listen to an account of Him, how we have not been deceived, and shall not cease to confess Him,--although men's reproaches be heaped upon us, although the most terrible tyrant compel us to deny Him,--I shall prove to you as you stand here that we have not believed empty fables, or words without any foundation but words filled with the Spirit of God, and big with power, and flourishing with grace."

Keep in mind that the writings we have from this period are all very one sided. We don't have any of the writings of any of the critics of orthodox Christianity. Other than the NHL, we have pretty much nothing from non-orthodox Christians. It would of course be very interesting to read the works of Celsus, etc.
The 2 Peter 1 bit is with regard to specific miracles, like the transfiguration. Nothing in the text indications this is about the whole of Jesus' historicity. Similarly, the Trypho bit is about whether or not Jesus is the messiah, i.e., Jesus cannot be the Christ (thus, Christians have invented a messiah for themselves) because Elijah never came back to anoint him. He outright says this later on in the Dialogue, and elsewhere just presumes that Jesus existed the entire time.
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