HISTORY AND THE GOSPEL JESUS

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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maryhelena
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HISTORY AND THE GOSPEL JESUS

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HISTORY AND THE GOSPEL JESUS

It’s been said that I …’’..employ the word "history" as slogan that magically supports whatever you want to say, but you don't do any history’’.

Perhaps it’s time to refresh the minds both of older forum members and enlighten new members on my approach to history. History, of course, relevant to the gospel Jesus story. Today being Resurrection Day - my 12 year old historical chart will come back to life. It has of course been brought back to life a number of times on this forum. It originally appeared on FRDB. Seasons come and go, rebirth is as part of intellectual evolution as it is in the natural world that sustains us all.

How does one do history? Unless one has taken an academic course that enables one to study ancient texts, all one can do is read the historians books. One becomes a consumer of a historians historical study.

Before I add the chart to this post I think a bit of background might be useful. My approach to the gospel Jesus has always been a historical approach. From the moment I decided that the gospel Jesus was a literary figure and not a historical figure, I reached for a history book. That book was Israelite and Judaean History by the authors, John H Hayes and J Maxwell Miller. First published in 1977. (There is a newer version out, 2012, which I don’t have so don’t know if anything has been revised or updated.)

Obviously, the first thing to search for was the time of Tiberius and Pilate. (14 to 37 c.e.)

Pages 641/642

"Jesus was probably born in or near Nazareth...Nothing firm can be said of him until he was about thirty....To present the shape of the career of Jesus is a matter of forming the most probable hypothesis to cover those facts which can be reasonably entertained after radical synoptic criticism. It seems that Jesus believed himself entrusted by God with the reformation of his people for the task of converting the world, that he believed it necessary to win back those who lived among Gentiles in the north in his own Galilee, in southern Syria, in the Decapolis, and in the territory of Philip. He ranged widely over these areas from a headquarters at Capernaum on the north side of the Lake of Galilee,.....His morality was traditional but his intellectual grasp of its basis was original unconventional. More articulate than other Galilean religious figures, he had the extra-ordinary gift both for the poetic expression of his interpretation of his nation's wisdom and for facing men and women with their own crises. Supremely in history his impact challenged both humble individuals and well established authority, the latter disturbed....by his apparent willingness to associate with Rome and its agents."

Having already rejected a historical gospel Jesus (of whatever variant) I viewed this paragraph as simply upholding a historicists view of that gospel Jesus. However, something interesting was said in that paragraph: ‘’…… he believed it necessary to win back those who lived among Gentiles in the north in his own Galilee, in southern Syria, in the Decapolis, and in the territory of Philip.’’

A few pages earlier

Page 636

Philip (son of Herod by Cleopatra of Jerusalem) was remarkable among Herodians for his popularity and benevolence as a ruler. His reign being peaceful, there is less to report of him; but he too was a builder, and a straightforward supporter of the Roman empire. (Ant.XVIII 28 War II 168) He rebuilt ancient Paneas (Banias) giving it the name of Caesarea. During his reign it was suitably distinguished from the Roman provincial capital on the coast by the addition of Philippi and under that double name it became famous as the place where Simon Peter, the most prominent of the disciples, ventured the title of Messiah for Jesus, who, according to the oldest tradition rejected it (Mark 8.27-33), an incident drastically altered into acceptance as revelation in the later gospel of Matthew (16.13-20) and featured predominant in Christian tradition every since. …..Philip died childless in 34 c.e. and his kingdom was allotted to Agrippa after a few years of being annexed for administrative purposes to Syria (Ant.XVIII 106-8,237 War II 181.

The Josephan reference:

"About this time it was that Philip, Herod's brother departed this life, in the twentieth year of the reign of Tiberius, after he had been tetrarch of Trachonitis, and Gaulonitis, and of the nation of the Bataneans also, thirty-seven years. He had shewn himself a person of moderation and quietness in the conduct of his life and government; he constantly lived in that country which was subject to him, he used to make his progress with a few chosen friends; his tribunal also, on which he sat in judgement, followed him in his progress; and when any one met him who wanted his assistance, he made no delay, but had his tribunal sat down immediately, wheresoever he happened to be, and sat down upon it, and heard his complaint; he there ordered the guilty that were convicted to be punished, and absolved those that had been accused unjustly. He died at Julias; and when he was carried to that monument which he had already erected for himself beforehand, he was buried with great pomp. His principality Tiberius took (or he left no sons behind him) and added it to the province of Syria, but gave orders that the tributes which arose from it should be collected, and laid up in his tetrarchy."
(Josephus: Antiquities of the Jews. Book XV111,ch.1V,par.6)

The gospel Jesus spent considerable time in the villages of Caesarea Philippi. The gospel story has Jesus early disciples come from Bethsaida. (Gospel Philip was from Bethsaida, the city of Andrew and Peter. John ch.1) Philip died in Julias (a name he had added to Bethsaida . (Ant. Book XVIII)

The history of Philip (the Tetrarch) set in motion an idea that perhaps he was the inspirational man behind the gospel Jesus story. A long reign of 37 years and by all accounts a man of peace, benevolence and good character. Remove all the mythology from the gospel Jesus - and is he not portrayed of similar character to Philip ? Gospel Jesus doing in the territory of Philip what Philip himself was doing ? It seemed to me that gospel Jesus looked to be a ‘Johnny-come-lately touring the villages of Caesarea Phillipi.

The Philip idea kept me going for a few years. But, ultimately, the history of Philip lacked one essential gospel Jesus event. The gospel Jesus crucifixion. I attempted to handle this issue via mythology; the dying and rising gods mythology had been added to the gospel Jesus story. Indicating a composite gospel Jesus - a flesh and blood historical man with a mythological topdressing for theological reasons.

George Wells brought up crucifixions in the time of the Hasmonean Alexander Jannaeus. The Toledot Yeshu has it’s Yeshu in the time of Alexander Jannaeus. How to get back in time from the gospel Jesus story, a story set in the time of Tiberius and Pilate ? That’s were the Lukan writer comes in.

In Luke’s account of the 15th year of Tiberius he mentions Lysanias of Abilene .

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysanias

One can of course argue for a second Lysanias in the time of Tiberius. However, it is the Lysanias involved with the Hasmoneans that has more to offer with regard to the crucifixion element in the gospel Jesus story. Lysanias was executed, in 33 b.c. by the Roman Marc Antony, A few years earlier, 37 b.c. the Hasmonan he had attempted to help, Antigonus,, was also executed by Marc Antony. What this history offers is an executed, hung on a stake (Cassio Dio) King and High Priest of the Jews. In regard to the gospel story, this history allows for a composite literary gospel Jesus: a gospel Jesus figure reflecting a rebel, a seditionist, a Man of War, and a Man of Peace in the history of Philip the Tetrarch.

That is basically the point of my history chart. It’s set up with history on one side and gospel stories on the other side. While historical figures left behind coins of their reign, the stories told about them - from Philo to Josephus - are, without historical backup, just stories. However, the historical figures and the stories attributed to them, provide a backdrop from which the gospel writers were able to create a literary, a composite, figure of Jesus. Yes, they used the OT, mythology, theology and philosophical ideas - but these are the superstructure not the historical platform upon which they rest.

While it is of course possible to hum and haw over my history chart, the history of this chart stands. It is history - as any historian would support. What I have made of these historical pieces - how I have put them together in order to make sense of the gospel Jesus story - may or may not be of interest. The conclusions I have drawn by placing history side by side with the gospel Jesus story is not an end in itself, it is simply a springboard to further research. Much more can and needs to be done in order to get a clearer picture of early Christian origins. I have not stopped researching, thinking and coming up with ideas etc. What I have learned is that history has to be allowed to thrown light on early Christian origins. That has always been and continues to be the driving force behind researching early Christian origins.

I did, in 2012, send an FRDB link for the chart to Richard Carrier: His response:

Useful chart. Good job including the citations to everything (shout out to everyone: that’s how you do this sort of thing). Thanks. Richard Carrier.


HISTORY and Coins Philo (died about 50 c.e.) Flaccus JOSEPHUS: War (about 75 c.e.)Antiquities:(about 94 c.e.) The composite gospel Jesus figure based upon the historical figures of the last King and High Priest of the Jews, Antigonus; Philip the Tetrarch and Agrippa I.
King Antigonus Mattathias II High Priest of the Jews: 4 b.c.e. – 37 b.c.e. Hasmonean Bilingual Coins, Hebrew and Greek. Antigonus enters Jerusalem: Antigonus himself also bit off Hyrcanus's ears with his own teeth, as he fell down upon his knees to him, that so he might never be able upon any mutation of affairs to take the high priesthood again, for the high priests that officiated were to be complete, and without blemish. War: Book 1.ch.13 (40 b.c.)........................Antony came in, and told them that it was for their advantage in the Parthian war that Herod should be king; so they all gave their votes for it. War: Book 1.ch.14 (40 b.c.) John 18.10; Mark 14.47; Matthew 26.51; Luke 22.50. John and Luke specifying right ear, Mark and Matthew have 'ear'. gJohn stating that Peter cut off the ear of the High Priest's servant.
Now as winter was going off, Herod marched to Jerusalem, and brought his army to the wall of it; this was the third year since he had been made king at Rome; War: Book 1. ch.17 (37 b.c.).. Herod on his own account, in order to take the government from Antigonus, who was declared an enemy at Rome, and that he might himself be king, according to the decree of the Senate. Antiquities Book 14 ch.16. gJohn indicates a three year ministry for JC.
Cassius Dio: Antigonus. These people Antony entrusted to one Herod to govern, and Antigonus he bound to a cross and flogged,—treatment accorded to no other king by the Romans,—and subsequently slew him. Roman History, Book xlix, c.22. Then it was that Antigonus, without any regard to his former or to his present fortune, came down from the citadel, and fell at Sosius's feet, who without pitying him at all, upon the change of his condition, laughed at him beyond measure, and called him Antigona. Yet did he not treat him like a woman, or let him go free, but put him into bonds, and kept him in custody.... Sosius ......went away from Jerusalem, leading Antigonus away in bonds to Antony; then did the axe bring him to his end..War: Book 1.ch.18. ..Antigonus, without regard to either his past or present circumstances, came down from the citadel, and fell down at the feet of Sosius, who took no pity of him, in the change of his fortune, but insulted him beyond measure, and called him Antigone [i.e. a woman, and not a man;] yet did he not treat him as if he were a woman, by letting him go at liberty, but put him into bonds, and kept him in close custody....... The soldiers mock Jesus: Mark 15.16-20; Matthew 27:27-31.Jesus flogged: John 19:1; Mark 15:15; Matthew 27:26. JC crucified. Trilingual sign over cross: Aramaic, Latin and Greek. gJohn 19.19-21. JESUS OF NAZARETH, THE KING OF THE JEWS. Other variations: THIS IS JESUS THE KING OF THE JEWS; THE KING OF THE JEWS; THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS.
...and then but Herod was afraid lest Antigonus should be kept in prison [only] by Antony, and that when he was carried to Rome by him, he might get his cause to be heard by the senate, and might demonstrate, as he was himself of the royal blood, and Herod but a private man, that therefore it belonged to his sons however to have the kingdom, on account of the family they were of, in case he had himself offended the Romans by what he had done. Out of Herod's fear of this it was that he, by giving Antony a great deal of money, endeavoured to persuade him to have Antigonus slain. Antiquities: Book 14 ch.16. (Slavonic Josephus has the teachers of the Law giving the money to Pilate...) Judas betrays JC for 30 pieces of silver. Matthew 27.3.
Now when Antony had received Antigonus as his captive, he determined to keep him against his triumph; but when he heard that the nation grew seditious, and that, out of their hatred to Herod, they continued to bear good-will to Antigonus, he resolved to behead him at Antioch, for otherwise the Jews could no way be brought to be quiet. (37 b.c.) Antiquities: Book 15 ch.1. Acts: 11:16.The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch.
Philip the Tetrarch: Herodian Coins. 4 b.c.e. – 34 c.e. When Philip also had built Paneas, a city at the fountains of Jordan, he named it Caesarea. He also advanced the village Bethsaida, situate at the lake of Gennesareth, unto the dignity of a city, both by the number of inhabitants it contained, and its other grandeur, and called it by the name of Julias, Antiquities: Book 18 ch.2. John 1:43-45. Philip, Andrew and Peter come from Bethsaida. Around the villages of Caesarea Phillipi JC asked the disciples who do people say he is. Peter says: "You are the Messiah". Mark 8:27-30; Matthew 16: 13-16.
(about 34 c.e.) About this time it was that Philip, Herod's brother, departed this life, in the twentieth year of the reign of Tiberius, after he had been tetrarch of Trachonitis and Gaulanitis, and of the nation of the Bataneans also, thirty seven years. He had showed himself a person of moderation and quietness in the conduct of his life and government; he constantly lived in that country which was subject to him; he used to make his progress with a few chosen friends; his tribunal also, on which he sat in judgment, followed him in his progress; and when any one met him who wanted his assistance, he made no delay, but had his tribunal set down immediately, wheresoever he happened to be, and sat down upon it, and heard his complaint: he there ordered the guilty that were convicted to be punished, and absolved those that had been accused unjustly. He died at Julias; and when he was carried to that monument which he had already erected for himself beforehand, he was buried with great pomp.His principality Tiberius took, (for he left no sons behind him,) and added it to the province of Syria, but gave order that the tributes which arose from it should be collected, and laid up in his tetrachy. Antiquities: Book 18 ch.4. disciples/apostles: John 6:70; Mark 3:14; Matthew 10:2; Luke 6:13. A rich man from Arimathea, Joseph took the body, wrapped it in a clean linen cloth, and placed it in his own new tomb that he had cut out of the rock. Matthew 27:57-59. Mark 15:43. Joseph of Arimathea, a prominent member of the Council, who was himself waiting for the kingdom of God, went boldly to Pilate and asked for Jesus’ body. JC crucified during rule of Pilate - which ends in 36 c.e.
Agrippa I. (d.44 c.e.) Herodian Coins. The mocking of Carabbas:... a diadem, and clothed the rest of his body with a common door mat instead of a cloak and instead of a sceptre they put in his hand a small stick ..., he had received all the insignia of royal authority, and had been dressed and adorned like a king, ....Then from the multitude of those who were standing around there arose a wonderful shout of men calling out Maris; and this is the name by which it is said that they call the kings among the Syrians;..when Flaccus heard, or rather when he saw this, he would have done right if he had apprehended the maniac and put him in prison, that he might not give to those who reviled him any opportunity or excuse for insulting their superiors, and if he had chastised those who dressed him up for having dared both openly and disgustedly, both with words and actions, to insult a king. The soldiers mock Jesus: Mark 15.16-20; Matthew 27:27-31. ..... The soldiers led Jesus away into the palace (that is, the Praetorium) and called together the whole company of soldiers. They put a purple robe on him, then twisted together a crown of thorns and set it on him. And they began to call out to him, “Hail, king of the Jews!” Again and again they struck him on the head with a staff and spit on him. Falling on their knees, they paid homage to him. And when they had mocked him, they took off the purple robe and put his own clothes on him. Then they led him out to crucify him............Pilate released Barabbas.


Earl Doherty

"I can well acknowledge that elements of several representative, historical figures fed into the myth of the Gospel Jesus, since even mythical characters can only be portrayed in terms of human personalities, especially ones from their own time that are familiar and pertinent to the writers of the myths."

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Re: HISTORY AND THE GOSPEL JESUS

Post by maryhelena »

I'm not the first person to connect the Hasmonean King and High Priest, Antigonus, with the gospel Jesus crucifixion story. The earliest person to do so, as far as I'm aware, might be Rabbi Wise. The following quotes have been used within various posts to this forum. Since the OP is dealing with my historical chart, I thought it appropriate to list these referenced in one place.

Rabbi Isaac M. Wise

40. THE CRUCIFIED KING OF JUDEA. (1880)


Marc Antony intended to spare Antigonus and bring him to Rome to figure in his triumph. Herod, however, was afraid the heroic and legitimate king might find friends in Rome to plead his cause before the senate. Therefore, he insisted that Antony should slay Antigonus, and the last of the Asmonean kings, by command of Marc Antony, was crucified, in 37 b.c. Strabo says he was beheaded, but Plutarch, in his Life of Antony, and Dio Cassius (book XLIX), both state that he was crucified. Plutarch says that this was the first king thus put to death by the Roman victor. Dio says, ‘’Antony now gave the kingdom to a certain Herod, and, having stretched Antigonus on the cross and scourged him, which had never been done before to a king by the Romans, he put him to death.’’ The sympathies of the masses for the crucified King of Judea, the heroic son of so many heroic ancestors, and the legends growing, in time, out of this historical nucleus, became, perhaps, the source from which Paul and the Evangelists preached Jesus as ‘’The Crucified King of Judea.’’

http://collections.americanjewisharchiv ... wealth.pdf

John M Robertson:


The Free Review

Edited by John M. Robertson
Vol. II
April to September 1894.

There is one more probable historical basis for a
detail in the Jesus myth . It is not credible that Paul's
Jesus , or any other , had been crucified as “ The King
of the Jews ” ; but we know from Dio Cassius that a
Jewish king, Antigonus, was scourged , crucified , and
afterwards put to death by the order of Mark Antony ,
before the Christian era . Such an act must needs have
made a profound impression on the Jewish people ;
even if it was not memorised for them by such a drama
as was spontaneously set up and preserved among the
Peruvians to commemorate the execution of the last
Inca ; and there is every reason to surmise that the
historic fact in regard to King Antigonus was woven
into the Jesuist myth
.

At one time, Wikipedia, made reference to this article: The reference to John Robertson has since been removed....

^ Josephus merely says that Marc Antony beheaded King Antigonus. Antiquities, XV 1:2 (8-9). Roman historian Dio Cassius says scouraged, crucified then put to death. See The University Magazine and Free Review, Volume 2 edited by John Mackinnon Robertson and G. Astor Singer (Nabu Press, 2010) at page 13. Merging the material from Josephus and Dio Cassius leads to the conclusion that Antigonus was scourged, crucified, and beheaded.

In a later publication, Pagan Christs, 1911, Robertson again referenced Antigonus:

The scourging and crucifixion of Antigonus, again, must have made a profound impression on the Jews; 2 and it is a historic fact that the similar slaying of the last of the Incas was kept in memory for the Peruvians by a drama annually acted. 3 It may be that the superscription "This is the King of the Jews," and even the detail of scourging, 4 came proximately from the story of Antigonus; though on the other hand it is not unlikely that Antony should have executed Antigonus on the lines of the sacrifice of the mock-king. But it is noteworthy that where the existing mystery-drama, which was doubtless a Gentile development from a much simpler form, introduces historical characters, it does so on the clear lines of sacrificial principle set forth in the ritual of the Khonds, where already the symbol of the cross is prominent in the fashion of slaying the victim. Though the Gentile hostility to the Jews 5 would dictate the special implication of the Jewish priests and people, and of King Herod as in the third gospel, the total effect is to make it clear that the guilt of the sacrifice rests on no one official, but is finally taken by the whole people upon them. Even the quotation put in the mouth of the dying God-Man, "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?" 6 has the effect of implying that he had hitherto suffered voluntarily. Thus does the ritual which was to grow into a world religion preserve in its consummated quasi-historical form the primeval principle that "one man should die for the people" by the people's will; and, as we have seen, not even in extending the benefit of the sacrifice to "all mankind" does the great historic religion outgo the religious psychology of the ancient Dravidians.

https://sacred-texts.com/bib/cv/pch/pch41.htm


Frank Zindler: The Jesus the Jews Never Knew: Page 412:

For more probable theories of the origin of the crucifixion legend may be ventured. Rabbi Wise considers that it may have arisen from the story of Antigonus. He writes, ''Dion Cassius says, 'Antony now gave the Kingdom to a certain Herod, and having stretched Antigonus on the cross and scourged him, which had never been done before to a king by the Romans, he put him to death'. The sympathies of the masses for the crucified king of Judah, the heroic son of so many heroic ancestors, and the legends growing, in time, out of this historical nucleus, became, perhaps, the source from which Paul and the evangelists preached Jesus as the crucified king of Judea.'' (History of the Hebrew's Second Commonwealth, 1880, Cincinnati, page 206)

Rabbi Isaac Mayer Wise (1819-1900), scholar and novelist

Also of interest, in regard to Antigonus, is this article:

Gregory Doudna

"Allusions to the End of the Hasmonean Dynasty in Pesher Nahum (4Q169)" (2011)

The major objection raised in secondary literature to this reading of Pesher Nahum, as alluding to a doomed ruler of Israel hung up alive, has actually been a non-textual reason: a perception that nothing corresponds with such an image in known history. Was there ever a Jewish ruler, a Hasmonean king or high priest, in the era of these texts who was hung up alive? Actually, there was.
--------
And of particular interest in light of the allusion in Pesher Nahum is the fact that Cassius Dio, the Roman historian, says that Antigonus Mattathias was hung up alive on a cross and tortured in the process of being executed by Mark Antony.3 In his death at the hands of gentiles Antigonus Mattathias corresponds with the portrayal of the death of the Wicked Priest, and Antigonus Mattathias is the only Hasmonean ruler of the first century bce who does.
------
Antigonus Mattathias was captured in Jerusalem and killed by gentiles in a foreign country. And of particular interest in light of the allusion in Pesher Nahum is the fact that Cassius Dio, the Roman historian, says that Antigonus Mattathias was hung up alive on a cross and tortured in the process of being executed by Mark Antony.3 In his death at the hands of gentiles Antigonus Mattathias corresponds with the portrayal of the death of the Wicked Priest, and Antigonus Mattathias is the only Hasmonean ruler of the first century bce who does.
And so it seems to me that the wicked ruler of these texts reflects Antigonus Mattathias, and that the Lion of Wrath alludes to Mark Antony who hung up alive Antigonus,
-----
And it is surprising to me that this suggestion seems to be new. Despite the striking correspondences between Antigonus Mattathias and the Wicked Priest just named and no obvious counter-indication, so far as I have been able to discover there has never previously been a scholarly suggestion that the Wicked Priest might allude to Antigonus Mattathias. And in asking how Antigonus Mattathias was missed I am including myself, for I too missed this in my study of Pesher Nahum of 2001,

https://www.academia.edu/12144236/_Allu ... Q169_2011_
----------
In what may come to be regarded as one of the more unusual, indeed astonishing, oversights in the history of Qumran scholarship, so far as is known it seems no previous scholar has proposed that Antigonus Mattathias, the last Hasmonean king of Israel, executed by the Romans in 37 BCE, might be the figure underlying the Wicked Priest of Pesher Habakkuk or the doomed ruler of Pesher Nahum. The actual allusion of the figure of these texts, Antigonus Mattathias, remained unseen even though it was always in open view, as obvious as it could be. And in wondering how Antigonus Mattathias was missed in the history of scholarship I include myself, for I too missed this in my 2001 study of Pesher Nahum.

https://bibleinterp.arizona.edu/article ... /dou398018

The crucifixion element in the gospel story has been the subject of much debate. Fernando Bermejo-Rubiohas produced many papers, and now a new book, dealing with the seditious elements within the gospel story. Steven Brian Pounds has produced an excellent study on the The Crucifiable Jesus - concentrating on The King of the Jews charge against the gospel Jesus.

https://api.repository.cam.ac.uk/server ... 8a/content
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Re: HISTORY AND THE GOSPEL JESUS

Post by StephenGoranson »

The civil war between his father and his uncle split the populace, so a claim that the masses supported him is iffy.
Also, the proposal, which I think is mistaken, that he was called "The Wicked Priest" in 4QpesherNahum, if you accept it, hardly helps your story.
And, if he was spur for NT, why did such idea await 1880 to be even mooted?
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Re: HISTORY AND THE GOSPEL JESUS

Post by maryhelena »

StephenGoranson wrote: Wed Apr 03, 2024 5:24 am The civil war between his father and his uncle split the populace, so a claim that the masses supported him is iffy.


Now when Antony had received Antigonus, as his captive, he determined to keep him against his triumph. But when he heard that the nation grew seditious; and that, out of their hatred to Herod, they continued to bear good will to Antigonus, he resolved to behead him at Antioch; (2) for otherwise the Jews could no way be brought to be quiet. And Strabo of Cappadocia attests to what I have said; when he thus speaks; “Antony ordered Antigonus the Jew to be brought to Antioch, and there to be beheaded. And this Antony seems to me to have been the very first man who beheaded a King; as supposing he could no other way bend the minds of the Jews, so as to receive Herod, whom he had made King in his stead. For by no torments could they be forced to call him King: so great a fondness they had for their former King. So he thought that this dishonourable death would diminish the value they had for Antigonus’s memory; and at the same time would diminish their hatred they bear to Herod.” Thus far Strabo.

Antiquities book 15 ch.1.


Also, the proposal, which I think is mistaken, that he was called "The Wicked Priest" in 4QpesherNahum, if you accept it, hardly helps your story.


Antigonus as the 'wicked priest'? Well he did bite off his uncle's ear. - thus preventing Hyrancus from ever again being high priest. Freedom fighter or terrorist depends on whose side one is on. I've lived through two of them. Kenyatta and Mandela. Evertually the 'terrorist' becomes a peace maker and welcomed into society. So no, Stephen, Antigonus viewed as the 'wicked priest' is no detriment to how he was eventually received.


And, if he was spur for NT, why did such idea await 1880 to be even mooted?
Maybe ideas await their own moment to drop....A time for everything....
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Re: HISTORY AND THE GOSPEL JESUS

Post by StephenGoranson »

"fondness" and "Wicked Priest"--hmm.
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Re: HISTORY AND THE GOSPEL JESUS

Post by maryhelena »

StephenGoranson wrote: Wed Apr 03, 2024 8:03 am "fondness" and "Wicked Priest"--hmm.


That's life, Stephen, transformation....
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Re: HISTORY AND THE GOSPEL JESUS

Post by StephenGoranson »

Anyway, I think he was too late to be the Qumran-view Wicked Priest, because
a) paleographic estimates
b) C14 date ranges
c) analysis of contemporaries
d) personal characteristics, or lack
and because
e) Alexander Jannaeus was already the Wicked Priest.
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Re: HISTORY AND THE GOSPEL JESUS

Post by maryhelena »

StephenGoranson wrote: Wed Apr 03, 2024 9:06 am Anyway, I think he was too late to be the Qumran-view Wicked Priest, because
a) paleographic estimates
b) C14 date ranges
c) analysis of contemporaries
d) personal characteristics, or lack
and because
e) Alexander Jannaeus was already the Wicked Priest.
And I think you have no historical evidence for Judah the Essene.
All you have is a story in Josephus. Whereas Doudna has two historical figures in his theory. Hence, I go with history not Josephus unverified stories. Alexander Jannaeus as the wicked priest and Judah the Essene as the teacher - verse - Hyrancus as the teacher and Antigonus as the wicked priest?. No contest Stephen, history wins.

And, no, I'm not getting into any debate with you over the Essenes. They are not the subject of the OP.

And just to keep history in mind in view of the OP ... Alexander Jannaeus did not bring down the Hasmonean dynasty.... That tragedy fell to Hyrancus and Antigonus.
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Re: HISTORY AND THE GOSPEL JESUS

Post by StephenGoranson »

Compare Judah in 1QpHab 8:1-3
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Re: HISTORY AND THE GOSPEL JESUS

Post by Charles Wilson »

maryhelena wrote: Wed Apr 03, 2024 9:40 am And just to keep history in mind in view of the OP ... Alexander Jannaeus did not bring down the Hasmonean dynasty.... That tragedy fell to Hyrancus and Antigonus.
Keep Posting on this, maryhelena. Mebbe someday, someone here will realize that there was a History in the area before...before... JESUS!!!.

Jannaeus and the Memory of his History had to be eliminated as a threat to Rome. How better to accomplish this task than to render him unto Caesar as a loyal Prophet dedicated to Inverting the Story into a Pro-Roman one?

As the years roll by a Faction still loyal to the Jannaeus Idea has one more chance:

Josephus, Wars...2, 1.3:

"And indeed, at the feast of unleavened bread, which was now at hand, and is by the Jews called the Passover, and used to he celebrated with a great number of sacrifices, an innumerable multitude of the people came out of the country to worship; some of these stood in the temple bewailing the Rabbins [that had been put to death], and procured their sustenance by begging, in order to support their sedition. At this Archclaus was aftrighted, and privately sent a tribune, with his cohort of soldiers, upon them, before the disease should spread over the whole multitude, and gave orders that they should constrain those that began the tumult, by force, to be quiet. At these the whole multitude were irritated, and threw stones at many of the soldiers, and killed them; but the tribune fled away wounded, and had much ado to escape so. After which they betook themselves to their sacrifices, as if they had done no mischief; nor did it appear to Archelaus that the multitude could be restrained without bloodshed; so he sent his whole army upon them, the footmen in great multitudes, by the way of the city, and the horsemen by the way of the plain, who, falling upon them on the sudden, as they were offering their sacrifices, destroyed about three thousand of them; but the rest of the multitude were dispersed upon the adjoining mountains: these were followed by Archelaus's heralds, who commanded every one to retire to their own homes, whither they all went, and left the festival..."

Nope. No History here, uh-uhh. "Nothing to see here...":

"...We interrupt this tedious Post to tell you about...JESUS..."

"Ohhh...OK...Say, can we order out Pizza tonight, Dear?"

CW
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