Origen's interesting ideas

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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Peter Kirby
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Re: Origen's interesting ideas

Post by Peter Kirby »

Origen was just talking about some who would object to explaining the secret and mystical things in the Gospel.
Peter Kirby wrote: Wed Apr 17, 2024 10:22 pm in context: discussing The Parable of the Unforgiving Servant in Matthew 18
Immediately begins explaining a point here about the parable of the talents in Matthew // Luke, saying:
  • "the nobleman, who goes into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom and to return, is Christ"
  • "those who have received the ten talents are those who have been entrusted with the dispensation of the Word"
  • no explanation: "who had multiplied the pound fivefold, he did not render the praise which he assigned to the first, nor did he specify the word authority"
  • "His citizens who did not wish Him to reign ... are perhaps Israel who disbelieved Him, and perhaps also the Gentiles who disbelieved Him"
Proposal: the rest of the hidden interpretation here, not entirely given by Origen, is that those "entrusted with the dispensation" (multiplying tenfold) were the pneumatic, those who multiplied fivefold (not explained by Origen explicitly but contrasted with the first group) were the psychic, and of course then the last one was the hylic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pneumatic_(Gnosticism)

Commentary on Matthew 14.12-13

But some one will say that, perhaps, we act with impiety, who, because of the secret and mystical import of some of the Scriptures which are of heavenly origin, wish them to be symbolic, and endeavour to expound them, even though it might seem ex hypothesi that we had an accurate knowledge of their meaning. But to this we must say that, if there be those who have obtained the gift of accurate apprehension of these things, they know what they ought to do; but as for us, who acknowledge that we fall short of the ability to see into the depth of the things here signified, even though we obtain a somewhat crass perception of the things in the passage, we will say, that some of the things which we seem to find after much examination and inquiry, whether by the grace of God, or by the power of our own mind, we do not venture to commit to writing; but some things, for the sake of our own intellectual discipline, and that of those who may chance to read them, we will to some extent set forth.

But let these things, then, be said by way of apology, because of the depth of the parable; but, with regard to the question at what time the man — the king — in the parable wished to make a reckoning with his own servants, we will say that it seems that this takes place about the time of the judgment which had been proclaimed. And this is confirmed by two parables, one at the close of the Gospel before us, [Matthew 25:14-30] and one from the Gospel according to Luke. [Luke 19:12-27] And not to prolong the discussion by quoting the very letter, as any one who wishes can take it from the Scripture himself, we will say that the parable according to Matthew declares, For it is as when a man going into another country called his own servants, and delivered unto them his own goods, and to one he gave five talents, and to another two, and to another one talent; [Matthew 25:14-15] then they took action with regard to that which had been entrusted to them, and, after a long time, the lord of those servants comes, and it is written in the very words, that he also makes a reckoning with them. [Matthew 25:19] And compare the words, And when he began to make a reckoning, [Matthew 18:24] and consider that he called the going of the householder into another country the time at which we are at home in the body but absent from the Lord; [2 Corinthians 5:6] but his advent, when, after a long time the lord of those servants comes, [Matthew 25:19] the time at the consummation in the judgment; for after a long time the lord of those servants comes and makes a reckoning with them, and those things which follow take place. But the parable in Luke represents with more clearness, that a certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return, and when going, he called ten servants, and gave to them ten pounds, and said to them, Trade ye till I come. [Luke 19:12-13] But the nobleman, being hated by his own citizens, who sent an ambassage after him, as they did not wish him to reign over them, came back again, having received the kingdom, and told the servants to whom he had given the money to be called to himself that he might know what they had gained by trading. And, seeing what they had done, to him who had made the one pound ten pounds, rendering praise in the words, Well done, you good servant, because you were found faithful in a very little, [Luke 19:17] he gives to him authority over ten cities, to-wit, those which were under his kingdom. And to another, who had multiplied the pound fivefold, he did not render the praise which he assigned to the first, nor did he specify the word authority, as in the case of the first, but said to him, Be also over five cities. But to him who had tied up the pound in a napkin, he said, Out of your own mouth will I judge you, you wicked servant; [Luke 19:22] and he said to them that stood by, Take from him the pound, and give it unto him that has the ten pounds. [Luke 19:24] Who, then, in regard to this parable, will not say that the nobleman, who goes into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom and to return, is Christ, going, as it were, into another country to receive the kingdoms of this world, and the things in it? And those who have received the ten talents are those who have been entrusted with the dispensation of the Word which has been committed unto them. And His citizens who did not wish Him to reign over them when He was a citizen in the world in respect of His incarnation, [Luke 19:14] are perhaps Israel who disbelieved Him, and perhaps also the Gentiles who disbelieved Him.

Only, I have said these things with the view of referring his return when he comes with his kingdom to the consummation, when he commanded the servants to whom he had given the money to be called to him that he might know what they had gained by trading, and from a desire to demonstrate from this, and from the parable of the Talents, that the passage he who wished to make a reckoning with his own servants [Matthew 18:23] is to be referred to the consummation when now he is king, receiving the kingdom, on account of which, according to another parable, [Luke 19:12] he went into a far country, to receive for himself a kingdom and to return.

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Re: Origen's interesting ideas

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I think that Origen believed that we can discover the hidden meaning of a Gospel narrative or parable by comparing the different versions of the same pericope found in the 4 canonical Gospels.

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Re: Origen's interesting ideas

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andrewcriddle wrote: Thu Apr 18, 2024 8:50 am I think that Origen believed that we can discover the hidden meaning of a Gospel narrative or parable by comparing the different versions of the same pericope found in the 4 canonical Gospels.
Yes, I've been reading a lot of Origen lately, and that is one approach he sometimes uses.
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Re: Origen's interesting ideas

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There's something to this.
Peter Kirby wrote: Wed Apr 17, 2024 10:22 pm
But we ought to think in a general way about every parable, the interpretation of which has not been recorded by the evangelists, even though Jesus explained all things to His own disciples privately; [Mark 4:34]

Peter Kirby wrote: Wed Apr 17, 2024 10:22 pm According to Heine's translation: "But someone will object that we act impiously when, because of the secret and mystical nature of some texts, we wish these to be indicative of the above writings and attempt to clarify them, even if it appears in theory that we know their intention precisely."

ἀλλ' ἐρεῖ τις ὅτι μήποτε ἀσεβοῦμεν οἱ θέλοντες (διὰ τὸ ἀπόρρητόν τινων καὶ μυστικὸν) τῶν ὑπεράνω γραμμάτων εἶναι δηλωτικὰ ταῦτα <καὶ> πειρώμενοι ταῦτα σαφηνίσαι, κἂν δοκῇ καθ' ὑπόθεσιν, ὅτι ἔγνωμεν ἐπιμελῶς αὐτῶν τὸ βούλημα.
Peter Kirby wrote: Wed Apr 17, 2024 10:48 pm Immediately begins explaining a point here about the parable of the talents in Matthew // Luke, saying:
  • "the nobleman, who goes into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom and to return, is Christ"
  • "those who have received the ten talents are those who have been entrusted with the dispensation of the Word"
  • no explanation: "who had multiplied the pound fivefold, he did not render the praise which he assigned to the first, nor did he specify the word authority"
  • "His citizens who did not wish Him to reign ... are perhaps Israel who disbelieved Him, and perhaps also the Gentiles who disbelieved Him"
https://www.earlychristianwritings.com/ ... book1.html

Note also the treatment of Clement of Alexandria, Stromata, book 1, chapter 1, transitioning immediately from similar topics to talking about the parable of the talents, then interpreting it as follows.

And if knowledge belong not to all (set an ass to the lyre, as the proverb goes), yet written compositions are for the many. "Swine, for instance, delight in dirt more than in clean water."

"Wherefore," says the Lord, "I speak to them in parables: because seeing, they see not; and hearing, they hear not, and do not understand; " ...

And now the Saviour shows Himself, out of His abundance, dispensing goods to His servants according to the ability of the recipient, that they may augment them by exercising activity, and then returning to reckon with them; when, approving of those that had increased His money, those faithful in little, and commanding them to have the charge over many things, He bade them enter into the joy of the Lord. ...

"Thou, therefore, be strong," says Paul, "in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. And the things which thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also." And again: "Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." If, then, both proclaim the Word -- the one by writing, the other by speech -- are not both then to be approved, making, as they do, faith active by love? ...

But there is that species of knowledge which is characteristic of the herald, and that which is, as it were, characteristic of a messenger, and it is serviceable in whatever way it operates, both by the hand and tongue. ...

And those who have been rightly reared in the words of truth, and received provision for eternal life, wing their way to heaven. Most admirably, therefore, the apostle says, "In everything approving ourselves as the servants of God; as poor, and yet making many rich; as having nothing, yet possessing all things. Our mouth is opened to you." ...

Both must therefore test themselves: the one, if he is qualified to speak and leave behind him written records; the other, if he is in a right state to hear and read ...

There's a contrast here between "written compositions for the many" and knowledge "dispensed" by spoken word.
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Re: Origen's interesting ideas

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This sounds like more on similar themes from Origen.

Commentary on John 1.40

And that which John calls an eternal gospel, which would properly be called a spiritual gospel, clearly presents both the mysteries presented by Christ's words and the things of which his acts were symbols, to those who consider "all things face to face" concerning the Son of God himself. Consistent with these matters, we understand that just as one is a Jew outwardly and cir[cumcised], there being both an outward and inward cir[cumcision], so it is with a Christian and baptism.

By Origen's analogy, the "inward" baptism seems to allows Christians to consider the eternal gospel, called a spiritual gospel.
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Re: Origen's interesting ideas

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Origen's discussion here in Commentary on John is longer than what I just quoted:

(40) And that which John calls an eternal gospel, which would properly be called a spiritual gospel, clearly presents both the mysteries presented by Christ's words and the things of which his acts were symbols, to those who consider "all things face to face"76 concerning the Son of God himself. Consistent with these matters, we understand that just as one is a Jew outwardly and cir[cumcised], there being both an outward and inward cir[cumcision], so it is with a Christian and baptism.
(41) Both Paul and Peter, formerly being Jews outwardly and circumcised, later received from Jesus to be such also inwardly, not only confessing in words, but demonstrating in deeds that they were Jews outwardly for the salvation of the many in accordance with the dispensation. And one must say the same thing also of their Christianity.
(42) Just as Paul cannot help those Jews in the flesh unless, when reason persuades, he circumcise Timothy, and, when it is reasonable, be shaved and offer an offering and, in general, become a Jew to the Jews, that he might gain the Jews, so he who is set out for the benefit of many cannot, through inward Christianity alone, improve those who are instructed in the basic principles of outward Christianity and lead them forth to better and higher things.
(43) This is why we must live as a Christian in a spiritual and in a physical manner. And wherever it is necessary to preach the literal gospel declaring among the carnal that we "know nothing except Jesus Christ, and him crucified," we must do this. But whenever we find those who are established in the Spirit and are bearing fruit in him and desiring the heavenly wisdom, we ought to share with them the Word who was restored from being made flesh to what "he was in the beginning with God."
(44) We do not think our discussion was in vain when we examined these matters about the gospel, distinguishing in concept, as it were, the gospel which is perceptible by the senses from the intelligible and spiritual gospel.
(45) And, indeed, the task before us now is to translate the gospel perceptible to the senses into the spiritual gospel. For what is the interpretation of the gospel perceptible to the senses unless it is translated into the spiritual gospel? It is little or nothing, even though the common people believe they receive the things which are revealed from the literal sense.

The common people that accept the literal sense would (according to the categories previously mentioned) correspond to the psychic, while the spiritual gospel (according to these same categories) would be understood by the spiritual (pneumatic).
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