Every time Paul mentions Mark, he also mentions Luke

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
RandyHelzerman
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Re: Every time Paul mentions Mark, he also mentions Luke

Post by RandyHelzerman »

Peter Kirby wrote: Wed Apr 24, 2024 9:26 am What are the arguments pertaining to Evangelion?
Well, here's a start. I'd preface this by saying this is all very provisional. I reserve the right to be wrong. Its just a few hours worth of work: doing a good job would take at least a year....so any help improving or disproving this is welcome.

To even get started, we need a good reconstruction of the Evangelion. I think Ben Smith's is as good as any and better than most, so for sake of this discussion, let's stipulate that he's got it more or less right.
Here are arguments for the priority of Mark relative to Matthew and Luke:

https://www.earlychristianwritings.com/mark-prior.html
I always like clicking back to that website, many happy memories :-)

From that page, lets take a look at all of the arguments which are used to argue that Mark is prior to Luke and Matthew, and see if they can be modified, mutatis mutandis, to produce valid arguments for the priority of the Evangelion over Luke.

The Argument from Sequence of Incidents

The argument form is to look at parallel events, whose sequence is changed, and see which order the change makes most sense in. This is going to be of limited applicability, because as Ben Smith's reconstruction shows, to the best of our knowledge the Ev follows Lk's order very closely.

But in the one big example of where they do differ--whether Jesus went to Capharnum or Nazareth first, argues in favor of Ev priority. Lk has an odd reference to Jesus's miracles in Capharnum, even before Jesus was ever there. It looks for all the world like Luke just lost track of his edits and botched the story. Marcion's order makes much more sense. So this would argue for Marcion priority.


The Argument from Grammar and Aramaicisms

I have to beg complete incompetence to give a real evaluation on this Argument. And BeDuhn has for the most part given up on reconstructing *exact* wordings. So--at least by my limited skills--it appears that this argument form is neutral on priority. All help would be appreciated.


The Argument from Harder Readings

This suffers from much the same problems as the previous one: we have more of a gist of what was said, than the specific words. I was unable to find any systematic study of Ev vs Lk on hard readings; and even after looking for a while, I didn't find any examples. Maybe someone out there can help.


The Argument from Redaction

Many arguments for priority in some sense advert to the principle that the shorter, simpler version is prior to the longer, more elaborate version. This seems to hold true both in detail (e.g. Mt over Mk: divorce is strictly prohibited...er except for adultery) and in aggregate (Mk is shorter than Lk or Mt). The evangelists--orthodox and heterodox alike--prefer to preserve the prior text as much as possible, and make their "corrections" in the form of additions or recontextualizations. Elisions do happen, but these tend to be swamped by additions.

Placing Lk prior to the Ev would make it the single, solitary counterexample. A real standout.

It's hard to believe that Marcion had a maniacal desire to expunge inconvenient material, because everybody who has looked at the Ev in any detail, from Tertullian to BeDuhn, have all remarked at how strange some of the things are that Marcion (putatively) "left in" his gospel. E.g. the Ev gives Jesus a mother, and brothers, explicitly called a family--which is quite strange for a docetic Jesus. It would seem that the author of Ev had the same reluctance to elide inconvenient material---there are some hard texts for Marcionites in there. No doubt they had to be explained with hand waving, er, "hermaneutically reinterpreted". Just like *any* branch of Christianity finds hard sayings in the gospels which they must grapple with.

More recent commentators https://sites.google.com/site/inglisonm ... ed-on-mark have noted that the "omissions" by Marcion are strange in another way: They are almost all Lukan sondergut:

"Knox observed, “Of the verses which [sic] there is positive evidence to show did not belong to Marcion, 79.7 per cent are peculiar to Luke. Of all the verses of Luke which are peculiar to Luke, 39 per cent are known to be missing in Marcion, whereas of verses of Luke paralleled in Matthew or Mark or both, only 10 per cent are known to be missing from Marcion.”

It would be quite weird if Marcion just took his scissors to Luke's sondergut--how would he even know it was Luke's sondergut?

This argument is almost comically pro Ev priority.


The Argument from Theology

This criteria looks at the theology of the parallel texts, and tries to deduce from that which is earlier. I find this argument form problematic for a few reasons: First of all, we don't know that much about Marcion's theology, aside from broad brushstrokes. Second, there's plenty in Ev which contradicts what we little we do know about his theology.

Do the birth narratives and genealogies count here? Inasmuch as Mark doesn't have them, and they are therefore representative of a later stage of theological development, perhaps this argues for Ev priority as well.

I don't put much weight on it though, I think it's problematic even for arguing for Marcan priority. People have argued about what the theology of these books are literally for millennia.

The Argument from Content

This argues that we should look at the content and judge which is prior. Ostensibly, this should be the Achilles heal for Ev priority. It would seem like all the fathers would collectively and cumulatively be death by a thousand paper cuts for Ev priority here, on account of content. But, in this section at least, the focus is not on the content *lacking* from the shorter gospel, but the content *present* in the longer gospel. When we focus on this, the advantage dynamics shift.

As put, the description of how to apply the argument is pretty vague, but this section provides two concrete examples of it:

One example is that if one gospel contains virtually all of the content of another gospel, then the contained gospel is prior. For instance, the vast majority of Mark being copied into Luke augers for Marcan priority. But (as Ben Smith's reconstruction plainly shows) the same holds for Ev vs. Lk, and to an even greater degree.

Another example is that the gospel which contains more "legendary" material is later. E.g. Mt is later than Mk, because it contains earthquakes which resurrect the saints. which is purportedly legendary. On this criterion, surely the Ev scores highly by omitting the virgin birth, and the rest of the birth narratives, however beautiful and charmingly written they are.

This concludes my hasty and provisional analysis of the arguments for Marcan priority, and their applicability to Ev priority. I provisionally conclude that most argument schemas which can be used to argue for Marcan priority, can be retrofitted, mutatis mutandis, to produce an argument for Ev priority, salve veritate.

I confess, this was not written from a disinterested viewpoint, so I would very much appreciate it if somebody who was as dead-set against Ev priority would also take a look at these criteria, and see how well my analysis holds up.

---///----

Since long-form content is welcome :-) I'll add a few observations/arguments of my own.

First of all, I'd like to see a really good argument *against* Ev priority. AFAICT, the main argument is that Marcion cut down the Evangelion for doctrinal reasons. But at best, surely this point is neutral w.r.t. Ev priority; why isn't it just as likely that Luke interpolated the Ev for doctrinal reasons?

And increasingly, the trend is to question this rational, because of the stuff which Marcion *didn't* putatively cut out. It just doesn't withstand close scrutiny.

What's left? Really, all I can think of is 4 reasons:

1. Dogmatic reasons: (all the church fathers said so), or a lingering reluctance to consider the possibility that Luke (and perhaps Mathew) are based on a heretical gospel.

2. Funding reasons: I can only imagine the problems that getting funding from a religious endowment would be. "You mean, you want me to help you prove that Luke is based on a heretical gospel, that says that God is the Devil?????"

3. Book sales, too. At first Q too was doctrinally very controversial, but these days a book about Q can be safely marketed to the faithful--after all, studying Q is just studying the gospels that are already in your Bible!!! Alas, the faithful are not going to be interested in a book which says that Luke is based on a heretical gospel for a long time. This has got to reduce the market for the book by several orders of magnitude.

4. Plumping for Marcion priority is a career-limiting move. The poster child for this is Markus Vinzent. Even tenure and a mile-long C.V. have been known not to shield professors who hold this opinion. Securing an academic position is almost impossible as it is; why make it even harder? What's in it for the Dude??

EDIT: re-reading this, I can see where somebody might get the impression that I'm condemning academics. I'm not. First of all, I think doctrinal reasons are perfectly good reasons--we have freedom of religion, everybody has the right to live according to the dictates of their own conscience. Second of all, there are a lot of colleges which require you to sign a statement of beliefs.. I don't condemn them either: if a church is funding a college, I think they should have the general expectation that students who go there will be taught about that religion, by people who believe in that religion.

Getting appointed to a tenure-track position, at a research university, and then getting the funding to do research--and getting book publishers to publish your research--well, I have endless admiration for *anybody* who has been able to do that. Its far beyond my abilities, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with giving yourself every possible edge.

I'm just trying to point out that its not just lack of evidence which is standing in the way of general acceptance of Ev priority. There's all kinds of reasons, and, I'd even go so far to say that at present, most of them are good reasons.
END OF EDIT

Nevertheless, since Lucan priority is the current scholarly consensus, I do accept the burden of proof.

This site contains lots of examples of where Ev priority makes sense:
https://sites.google.com/site/inglisonm ... ic-problem

And this site has an extensive list of arguments for Ev priority:
http://www.marcionite-scripture.info/CW_2.htm
rgprice
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Re: Every time Paul mentions Mark, he also mentions Luke

Post by rgprice »

MrMacSon wrote: Mon Apr 22, 2024 6:54 pm Every time Paul mentions Luke, he also mentions Mark (and vice versa): see 2 Timothy 4:11,Colossians 4:10-14 and Philemon verse 24.
Regardless of whether these were part of "authentic" writings or not, I do think that this is also why the first two Gospels were attributed to Mark and Luke, both of which were originally associated with Paul. It was only much later, possibly y Irenaeus himself, that claims about Mark being associated with Peter developed. The Gospel of Mark must certainly, however, have been associated with Paul. And was attributed to the Mark mentioned in Paul's letters. I suspect also that the first person parts of Acts of the Apostles came from a narrative about Paul, that was originally attributed to Luke. Canonical Luke takes over the identity of the originally attributed author.
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Re: Every time Paul mentions Mark, he also mentions Luke

Post by andrewcriddle »

RandyHelzerman wrote: Wed Apr 24, 2024 2:44 pm ...................................................

More recent commentators https://sites.google.com/site/inglisonm ... ed-on-mark have noted that the "omissions" by Marcion are strange in another way: They are almost all Lukan sondergut:

"Knox observed, “Of the verses which [sic] there is positive evidence to show did not belong to Marcion, 79.7 per cent are peculiar to Luke. Of all the verses of Luke which are peculiar to Luke, 39 per cent are known to be missing in Marcion, whereas of verses of Luke paralleled in Matthew or Mark or both, only 10 per cent are known to be missing from Marcion.”

It would be quite weird if Marcion just took his scissors to Luke's sondergut--how would he even know it was Luke's sondergut?

This argument is almost comically pro Ev priority.


IF Marcion is trying in good faith to prepare a critical edition of the original Gospel using Luke as a basis, then it is IMO plausible that he would be reluctant to remove material from his corrected Luke which was paralleled in Matthew and/or Mark.

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Giuseppe
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Re: Every time Paul mentions Mark, he also mentions Luke

Post by Giuseppe »

andrewcriddle wrote: Sat Apr 27, 2024 2:01 am he would be reluctant to remove material from his corrected Luke which was paralleled in Matthew and/or Mark.
I can understand a Marcion interested to follow Mark (being Mark a gentilizing gospel, afterall, in virtue of the principle similis cum similibus), but I can't understand how Marcion could be ready "in good faith" to accept the authority of Matthew, a notorious judaizing gospel (too much devoted to Torah).
RandyHelzerman
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Re: Every time Paul mentions Mark, he also mentions Luke

Post by RandyHelzerman »

Since this is the only one you commented on, can I assume you agree with all there rest of the points :-) *chuckle*
andrewcriddle wrote: Sat Apr 27, 2024 2:01 am Marcion is trying in good faith to prepare a critical edition of the original Gospel using Luke as a basis, then it is IMO plausible that he would be reluctant to remove material from his corrected Luke which was paralleled in Matthew and/or Mark.
Plausible--if he *knew* which bits were which. But how would he even know? Here's what I mean when I ask that:

Luke Timothy Johnson, in one of his lectures on the synoptic problem, states that the problem really couldn't even be recognized until the advent of movable-type printing presses.

Even Origin himself wasn't able to scrutinize Matthew, Luke, and Mark closely enough to realize that Mark wasn't an Abridgment of Matthew.

AFAICT, the first person to arrange the synoptics in nice, parallel columns--showing *Both* what was common *AND* how they differed from each other was Griesbach, in the 1880s. That would be the first time somebody could figure out something like "All and only the parts in Luke which are Parallel in Matthew and Mark."

Marcion is the first that we know of who used text-critical arguments. But for him to have produced the Evangelion in that way, he would have to be way better than Origin. Next to him, Tertullian would look like a kindergartener, writing A.M. with crayons. And Iranaeus? Don't make me laugh! For Marcion to have composed the Evangelion that way, he would have had to have better text critical skills than anybody else had for another 1600 years.

But maybe Marcion *was* that good. Maybe that *is* what he did. If so--if Marcion *did* have the text critical skills to do that--and given that he was working, what, 50 to 60 years, at most after the original texts were written---well, I'd be prepared to believe that he got it exactly right :-) The Evangelion *is* the original, uncorrupted gospel. Who could prove him wrong? Nobody before or since--up until the invention of computerized text processing--would have the credentials to challenge him.
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DCHindley
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Re: Every time Paul mentions Mark, he also mentions Luke

Post by DCHindley »

And "Everytime you hear a bell ring, an angel is getting its wings."

There are a passage or two in the Clementine Homilies where "Peter" explains how his crowd can accurately identify corrupting additions, which "Simon" had used in the arguments put into his mouth. It was that the passages were deemed, by "Peter" to be unworthy of God as they conceived it, and thus MUST be bogus.

Since those concepts are at least partly subjective (if not pure fancy) then they mean nothing critically. Are Marcion hunters hanging in the wind?

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Re: Every time Paul mentions Mark, he also mentions Luke

Post by maryhelena »

RandyHelzerman wrote: Wed Apr 24, 2024 2:44 pm
Peter Kirby wrote: Wed Apr 24, 2024 9:26 am What are the arguments pertaining to Evangelion?
Well, here's a start. I'd preface this by saying this is all very provisional. I reserve the right to be wrong. Its just a few hours worth of work: doing a good job would take at least a year....so any help improving or disproving this is welcome.

To even get started, we need a good reconstruction of the Evangelion. I think Ben Smith's is as good as any and better than most, so for sake of this discussion, let's stipulate that he's got it more or less right.
Here are arguments for the priority of Mark relative to Matthew and Luke:

https://www.earlychristianwritings.com/mark-prior.html
I always like clicking back to that website, many happy memories :-)

From that page, lets take a look at all of the arguments which are used to argue that Mark is prior to Luke and Matthew, and see if they can be modified, mutatis mutandis, to produce valid arguments for the priority of the Evangelion over Luke.

The Argument from Sequence of Incidents

The argument form is to look at parallel events, whose sequence is changed, and see which order the change makes most sense in. This is going to be of limited applicability, because as Ben Smith's reconstruction shows, to the best of our knowledge the Ev follows Lk's order very closely.

But in the one big example of where they do differ--whether Jesus went to Capharnum or Nazareth first, argues in favor of Ev priority. Lk has an odd reference to Jesus's miracles in Capharnum, even before Jesus was ever there. It looks for all the world like Luke just lost track of his edits and botched the story. Marcion's order makes much more sense. So this would argue for Marcion priority.


The Argument from Grammar and Aramaicisms

I have to beg complete incompetence to give a real evaluation on this Argument. And BeDuhn has for the most part given up on reconstructing *exact* wordings. So--at least by my limited skills--it appears that this argument form is neutral on priority. All help would be appreciated.


The Argument from Harder Readings

This suffers from much the same problems as the previous one: we have more of a gist of what was said, than the specific words. I was unable to find any systematic study of Ev vs Lk on hard readings; and even after looking for a while, I didn't find any examples. Maybe someone out there can help.


The Argument from Redaction

Many arguments for priority in some sense advert to the principle that the shorter, simpler version is prior to the longer, more elaborate version. This seems to hold true both in detail (e.g. Mt over Mk: divorce is strictly prohibited...er except for adultery) and in aggregate (Mk is shorter than Lk or Mt). The evangelists--orthodox and heterodox alike--prefer to preserve the prior text as much as possible, and make their "corrections" in the form of additions or recontextualizations. Elisions do happen, but these tend to be swamped by additions.

Placing Lk prior to the Ev would make it the single, solitary counterexample. A real standout.

It's hard to believe that Marcion had a maniacal desire to expunge inconvenient material, because everybody who has looked at the Ev in any detail, from Tertullian to BeDuhn, have all remarked at how strange some of the things are that Marcion (putatively) "left in" his gospel. E.g. the Ev gives Jesus a mother, and brothers, explicitly called a family--which is quite strange for a docetic Jesus. It would seem that the author of Ev had the same reluctance to elide inconvenient material---there are some hard texts for Marcionites in there. No doubt they had to be explained with hand waving, er, "hermaneutically reinterpreted". Just like *any* branch of Christianity finds hard sayings in the gospels which they must grapple with.

More recent commentators https://sites.google.com/site/inglisonm ... ed-on-mark have noted that the "omissions" by Marcion are strange in another way: They are almost all Lukan sondergut:

"Knox observed, “Of the verses which [sic] there is positive evidence to show did not belong to Marcion, 79.7 per cent are peculiar to Luke. Of all the verses of Luke which are peculiar to Luke, 39 per cent are known to be missing in Marcion, whereas of verses of Luke paralleled in Matthew or Mark or both, only 10 per cent are known to be missing from Marcion.”

It would be quite weird if Marcion just took his scissors to Luke's sondergut--how would he even know it was Luke's sondergut?

This argument is almost comically pro Ev priority.


The Argument from Theology

This criteria looks at the theology of the parallel texts, and tries to deduce from that which is earlier. I find this argument form problematic for a few reasons: First of all, we don't know that much about Marcion's theology, aside from broad brushstrokes. Second, there's plenty in Ev which contradicts what we little we do know about his theology.

Do the birth narratives and genealogies count here? Inasmuch as Mark doesn't have them, and they are therefore representative of a later stage of theological development, perhaps this argues for Ev priority as well.

I don't put much weight on it though, I think it's problematic even for arguing for Marcan priority. People have argued about what the theology of these books are literally for millennia.

The Argument from Content

This argues that we should look at the content and judge which is prior. Ostensibly, this should be the Achilles heal for Ev priority. It would seem like all the fathers would collectively and cumulatively be death by a thousand paper cuts for Ev priority here, on account of content. But, in this section at least, the focus is not on the content *lacking* from the shorter gospel, but the content *present* in the longer gospel. When we focus on this, the advantage dynamics shift.

As put, the description of how to apply the argument is pretty vague, but this section provides two concrete examples of it:

One example is that if one gospel contains virtually all of the content of another gospel, then the contained gospel is prior. For instance, the vast majority of Mark being copied into Luke augers for Marcan priority. But (as Ben Smith's reconstruction plainly shows) the same holds for Ev vs. Lk, and to an even greater degree.

Another example is that the gospel which contains more "legendary" material is later. E.g. Mt is later than Mk, because it contains earthquakes which resurrect the saints. which is purportedly legendary. On this criterion, surely the Ev scores highly by omitting the virgin birth, and the rest of the birth narratives, however beautiful and charmingly written they are.

This concludes my hasty and provisional analysis of the arguments for Marcan priority, and their applicability to Ev priority. I provisionally conclude that most argument schemas which can be used to argue for Marcan priority, can be retrofitted, mutatis mutandis, to produce an argument for Ev priority, salve veritate.

I confess, this was not written from a disinterested viewpoint, so I would very much appreciate it if somebody who was as dead-set against Ev priority would also take a look at these criteria, and see how well my analysis holds up.

---///----

Since long-form content is welcome :-) I'll add a few observations/arguments of my own.

First of all, I'd like to see a really good argument *against* Ev priority. AFAICT, the main argument is that Marcion cut down the Evangelion for doctrinal reasons. But at best, surely this point is neutral w.r.t. Ev priority; why isn't it just as likely that Luke interpolated the Ev for doctrinal reasons?

And increasingly, the trend is to question this rational, because of the stuff which Marcion *didn't* putatively cut out. It just doesn't withstand close scrutiny.

What's left? Really, all I can think of is 4 reasons:

1. Dogmatic reasons: (all the church fathers said so), or a lingering reluctance to consider the possibility that Luke (and perhaps Mathew) are based on a heretical gospel.

2. Funding reasons: I can only imagine the problems that getting funding from a religious endowment would be. "You mean, you want me to help you prove that Luke is based on a heretical gospel, that says that God is the Devil?????"

3. Book sales, too. At first Q too was doctrinally very controversial, but these days a book about Q can be safely marketed to the faithful--after all, studying Q is just studying the gospels that are already in your Bible!!! Alas, the faithful are not going to be interested in a book which says that Luke is based on a heretical gospel for a long time. This has got to reduce the market for the book by several orders of magnitude.

4. Plumping for Marcion priority is a career-limiting move. The poster child for this is Markus Vinzent. Even tenure and a mile-long C.V. have been known not to shield professors who hold this opinion. Securing an academic position is almost impossible as it is; why make it even harder? What's in it for the Dude??

EDIT: re-reading this, I can see where somebody might get the impression that I'm condemning academics. I'm not. First of all, I think doctrinal reasons are perfectly good reasons--we have freedom of religion, everybody has the right to live according to the dictates of their own conscience. Second of all, there are a lot of colleges which require you to sign a statement of beliefs.. I don't condemn them either: if a church is funding a college, I think they should have the general expectation that students who go there will be taught about that religion, by people who believe in that religion.

Getting appointed to a tenure-track position, at a research university, and then getting the funding to do research--and getting book publishers to publish your research--well, I have endless admiration for *anybody* who has been able to do that. Its far beyond my abilities, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with giving yourself every possible edge.

I'm just trying to point out that its not just lack of evidence which is standing in the way of general acceptance of Ev priority. There's all kinds of reasons, and, I'd even go so far to say that at present, most of them are good reasons.
END OF EDIT

Nevertheless, since Lucan priority is the current scholarly consensus, I do accept the burden of proof.

This site contains lots of examples of where Ev priority makes sense:
https://sites.google.com/site/inglisonm ... ic-problem

And this site has an extensive list of arguments for Ev priority:
http://www.marcionite-scripture.info/CW_2.htm
Great post, Randy. I'll check out some of the links later. In the meantime - I asked Edge Copilot about Marcion....

In the tapestry of faith, a thread unique,
Marcion's vision, a truth he did seek.
From Sinope's shores to history's ear,
A gospel of contrast, he made clear.

With a canon closed, he took his stand,
A God of love, from a distant land.
Rejected the wrathful, Old Testament's lore,
Proclaimed a Christ, love's ambassador.

The church fathers debated, with fervor they fought,
Against Marcion's teachings, a heresy they thought.
Yet, in his challenge, a reflection we find,
Of faith's evolution, and theology's grind.

A dualistic cosmos, his legacy's frame,
Marcion's name etched in ecclesiastic fame.
Though centuries pass and his church no more,
His spirit lingers, in religious lore.

===========

His spirit lingers......
RandyHelzerman
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Re: Every time Paul mentions Mark, he also mentions Luke

Post by RandyHelzerman »

maryhelena wrote: Sat Apr 27, 2024 11:52 pm I asked Edge Copilot
God help us. Preferably the good God, not the just God.
andrewcriddle
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Re: Every time Paul mentions Mark, he also mentions Luke

Post by andrewcriddle »

RandyHelzerman wrote: Sat Apr 27, 2024 10:42 am Since this is the only one you commented on, can I assume you agree with all there rest of the points :-) *chuckle*
No you can't.
RandyHelzerman wrote: Sat Apr 27, 2024 10:42 am
andrewcriddle wrote: Sat Apr 27, 2024 2:01 am Marcion is trying in good faith to prepare a critical edition of the original Gospel using Luke as a basis, then it is IMO plausible that he would be reluctant to remove material from his corrected Luke which was paralleled in Matthew and/or Mark.
Plausible--if he *knew* which bits were which. But how would he even know? Here's what I mean when I ask that:

Luke Timothy Johnson, in one of his lectures on the synoptic problem, states that the problem really couldn't even be recognized until the advent of movable-type printing presses.

Even Origin himself wasn't able to scrutinize Matthew, Luke, and Mark closely enough to realize that Mark wasn't an Abridgment of Matthew.
I think you may be confusing Origen and Augustine.
RandyHelzerman wrote: Sat Apr 27, 2024 10:42 am AFAICT, the first person to arrange the synoptics in nice, parallel columns--showing *Both* what was common *AND* how they differed from each other was Griesbach, in the 1880s. That would be the first time somebody could figure out something like "All and only the parts in Luke which are Parallel in Matthew and Mark."
We have canon tables by Eusebius saying which pericopes have parallels in other Gospels. Ammonius probably prepared something similar in the early 3rd century. I agree that such aids are unlikely to have been available to Marcion.
RandyHelzerman wrote: Sat Apr 27, 2024 10:42 am Marcion is the first that we know of who used text-critical arguments. But for him to have produced the Evangelion in that way, he would have to be way better than Origin. Next to him, Tertullian would look like a kindergartener, writing A.M. with crayons. And Iranaeus? Don't make me laugh! For Marcion to have composed the Evangelion that way, he would have had to have better text critical skills than anybody else had for another 1600 years.

But maybe Marcion *was* that good. Maybe that *is* what he did. If so--if Marcion *did* have the text critical skills to do that--and given that he was working, what, 50 to 60 years, at most after the original texts were written---well, I'd be prepared to believe that he got it exactly right :-) The Evangelion *is* the original, uncorrupted gospel. Who could prove him wrong? Nobody before or since--up until the invention of computerized text processing--would have the credentials to challenge him.
We are dealing with a general tendency by Marcion not a rigid rule. (How far do the results depend on decisions to include or exclude from Ev material that is neither positively affirmed or positively denied to be present ?)

Andrew Criddle
RandyHelzerman
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Re: Every time Paul mentions Mark, he also mentions Luke

Post by RandyHelzerman »

andrewcriddle wrote: Sun Apr 28, 2024 7:49 am No you can't.
*chuckle* I figured. But I value your opinion highly and would be interested in a critique of the other points as well.
I think you may be confusing Origen and Augustine.
Yeah, Origin also thought that too. Astoundingly.
We are dealing with a general tendency by Marcion not a rigid rule
Even so, whether or not he has a general tendency to exclude Luke sondergut is something we already know. That *was* his general tendency!! But that is what we are trying to explain, it can’t be the explanation!
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