Secret Mark and Marcion via Chry

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RandyHelzerman
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Secret Mark and Marcion via Chry

Post by RandyHelzerman »

Noticed something interesting when reading this thread: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1771

Chrysostrom, when remonstrating the marcionites, makes a curious statement:
Chrysostrom wrote: "He took", say [those heretics, the Marcionites], "the form of a servant, when He girded Himself with linen, and washed the feet of His disciples."
Couchcloud points out how weird it is that Marcionites are said to interpret the quote from Phillipians "Jesus took the form of a servant" by adverting to the story of Jesus washing the feet of the disciples.....dressed in linen. (Phill vii)

What is weird about that? The scene of Jesus washing the disciples feet is *not* in Luke nor in the Evangelion--but in John.

Hmmm.....since I have been sucked into these Secret Mark threads, my brain was primed for *being dressed in linen.* And then....hmmm... Secret Mark purports to give a synoptic parallel to the raising of Lazarus, perhaps this is *also* another lost synoptic parallel to John.

Two episodes, both of which involve being dressed in linen for purposes of performing/undergoing a sacred ritual, both having parallels in John, but mysteriously absent from the Synoptics.

(Ken please tell me that the last supper is not an instance of γυμνοὶ γυμνῷ !! *chuckle*)
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billd89
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Re: Dates

Post by billd89 »

John 13:3 does NOT say Jesus 'took the form of a servant', CORRECT. That's Philippians 2:7.

John 13:4: ἐγείρεται ἐκ τοῦ δείπνου καὶ τίθησιν τὰ ἱμάτια καὶ λαβὼν λέντιον διέζωσεν ἑαυτόν·
λέντιον = Linen, apron.

John 13:5: Then he poured water into a basin and began to wash the disciples’ feet and to wipe them with the towel that was tied around him.

Jesus does a servant's work. He had become a servant (implied). Totally nude?

Augustine, Tractate 55.7 (John 13:1-5) c.415 AD:
And why should we wonder, if He girded Himself with a towel, who took upon Him the form of a servant, and was found in the likeness of a man?

This? Where "formam servi accipiens" is the δούλου of Philippians 2:7.
Hic est enim qui cum in forma Dei esset, non rapinam arbitratus est esse aequalis Deo, sed semetipsum exinanivit, formam servi accipiens, in similitudinem hominum factus, et habitu inventus ut homo; humiliavit semetipsum, factus obediens usque ad mortem, mortem autem crucis.

The Argument over the Towel in John Chrysostom, Homily 7 on Philippians is c.395:
What then say the heretics? See, say they, He did not become man. The Marcionites, I mean. But why? He was "made in the likeness of man." But how can one be "made in the likeness of men"? By putting on a shadow? But this is a phantom, and no longer the likeness of a man, for the likeness of a man is another man. And what will you answer to John, when he says, "The Word became flesh"? John 1:14 But this same blessed one himself also says in another place, "in the likeness of sinful flesh." Romans 8:3
...
"And being found in fashion as a man." See, they say, both "in fashion," and "as a man." To be as a man, and to be a man in fashion, is not to be a man indeed. To be a man in fashion is not to be a man by nature. See with what ingenuousness I lay down what our enemies say, for that is a brilliant victory, and amply gained, when we do not conceal what seem to be their strong points. For this is deceit rather than victory. What then do they say? Let me repeat their argument. To be a man in fashion is not to be a man by nature; and to be as a man, and in the fashion of a man, this is not to be a man. So then to take the form of a servant, is not to take the form of a servant. Here then is an inconsistency; and wherefore do you not first of all solve this difficulty? For as you think that this contradicts us, so do we say that the other contradicts you. He says not, "as the form of a servant," nor "in the likeness of the form of a servant," nor "in the fashion of the form of a servant," but "He took the form of a servant." What then is this? For there is a contradiction. There is no contradiction. God forbid! It is a cold and ridiculous argument of theirs. He took, say they, the form of a servant, when He girded Himself with a towel, and washed the feet of His disciples. Is this the form of a servant? Nay, this is not the form, but the work of a servant. It is one thing that there should be the work of a servant, and another to take the form of a servant. Why did he not say, He did the work of a servant, which were clearer? But nowhere in Scripture is "form" put for "work," for the difference is great: the one is the result of nature, the other of action. In common speaking, too, we never use "form" for "work." Besides, according to them, He did not even take the work of a servant, nor even gird Himself. For if all was a mere shadow, there was no reality. If He had not real hands, how did He wash their feet? If He had not real loins, how did He gird Himself with a towel? And what kind of garments did he take? For Scripture says, "He took His garments." John 13:12 So then not even the work is found to have really taken place, but it was all a deception, nor did He even wash the disciples. For if that incorporeal nature did not appear, it was not in a body. Who then washed the disciples' feet?

"That Augustine had read Chrysostom is evident in his work Contra Julianum. Apparently, Julian had cited Chrysostom as supporting the belief that infants, even before baptism, are free of original sin..." Augustine citing the work of someone he knew 419 AD is acceptable; that both knew and discussed the prolific and famous writings of the recent Church leader (Chrysostom, Archbishop of Constantinople c.395 AD), i.e. a 25 years old work, is entirely plausible.

Therapeutae were 'servants of God' but that is not mentioned here, too problematic, for the distinction between 'serving God' and 'serving man,' and what had seemed so obvious to Eusebius c.325 AD. I find it curious that Augustine would be ignorant of that older work -- a century, almost three generations -- but many reasons may be given for omission. I suppose the Jesus-as-a-Therapeut argument had been largely abandoned c.350 AD, a forbidden history as Church dogma took root.
RandyHelzerman
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Re: Dates

Post by RandyHelzerman »

billd89 wrote: Fri May 03, 2024 10:11 am Jesus does a servant's work. He had become a servant (implied). Totally nude?
Perhaps just a linen over his naked body, as the rich young man who Jesus resurrected is supposed to have been wearing.
Charles Wilson
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Re: Secret Mark and Marcion via Chry

Post by Charles Wilson »

1. Josephus,The Jewish War, Thackeray Translation, Loeb Classical Library, p. 327:

"...And now the feast of unleavened bread, which the Jews call Passover, came round; it is an occasion for the contribution of the multitude of sacrifices, and a vast crowd streamed in from the country for the ceremony. The promoters of the mourning for the doctors stood in a body of the Temple, procuring recruits for their faction..."

Mark 14: 48 - 52 (RSV):

[48] And Jesus said to them, "Have you come out as against a robber, with swords and clubs to capture me?
[49] Day after day I was with you in the temple teaching, and you did not seize me. But let the scriptures be fulfilled."
[50] And they all forsook him, and fled.

[51] And a young man followed him, with nothing but a linen cloth about his body; and they seized him,
[52] but he left the linen cloth and ran away naked.


Don't you see? This is from a PRIESTLY STORY. The Priestly character who was renamed "JESUS" came through the Mishmarot Recruitment as did every other Priest. The "Recruits" are "as servants", given a linen garment signifying "Beginning Priest".

The Priest (Again, renamed as "Jesus") is coordinating the Coup against Herod and the Romans. He will escape into the Death where thousands are being massacred. HE HAVE SHOULD BEEN MURDERED HIMSELF but was saved by the youth named today as "Peter".

2. "Schlachthof Funf". As Dresden is firebombed, NO ONE is spared. No one. Except Kurt Vonnegut and a few others held in Slaughterhouse Five.

3. "Help the bombardier, help the bombardier.
"I'm the bombardier, I'm the bombardier. I'm alright, I'm all right.
Then help him, Help him..."
***
"...Man was matter, that was Snowden`s secret.
Drop him out the window and he`ll fall.
Set fire to him and he`ll burn.
Bury him and he`ll rot like other kinds of garbage.
The spirit gone, man is garbage.
That was Snowden`s secret.
Ripeness was all."

4. The Priest should have been murdered with the rest.
Twelve years later - two complete Mishmarot Cycles - Jairus asks the Priest to try one more time and this time our Priest is not the Vonnegut, not the Heller:

The better Translation - the COUNTER Translation, is found in the Aramaic Community:

"My God, my God, FOR THIS WAS I SPARED?"

It's all there.

CW
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