The Prospect of a Christian Interpolation in Tacitus

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Roger Pearse
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Re: The Prospect of a Christian Interpolation in Tacitus

Post by Roger Pearse »

Ah. I did wonder... it felt disconnected, as if originally part of something longer. In fact the whole paper seemed unusual to me, because I couldn't see what the original research in it was (which is the point of publication), so I was rather surprised that the editors of Vigiliae Christianae published it.
Roger Pearse
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Re: The Prospect of a Christian Interpolation in Tacitus

Post by Roger Pearse »

Oh rats... I have managed to throw out a photocopy of John of Nikiu, and the PDF on archive is crud...
Roger Pearse
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Re: The Prospect of a Christian Interpolation in Tacitus

Post by Roger Pearse »

Phew - found some page images on disk. I'll pack them up and upload to Archive.org.
bcedaifu
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Re: The Prospect of a Christian Interpolation in Tacitus

Post by bcedaifu »

Thank you Roger, for sharing your thoughts on Carrier, and in particular, for highlighting some of his arithmetic manoeuvres of questionable validity. I deny that you misunderstand.

I agree, in large part with your assessment, though, I also concur with Carrier's overall thrust, and in that sense, we are on opposite sides, but, I genuinely appreciate the sincerity of your efforts, and thoughtfulness in your posts, here, and notably, at your blog:

http://www.roger-pearse.com/weblog/augu ... n-english/

This spectacular copy, of Mark Vermes' painstaking efforts, is especially noteworthy. Thank you so much, Roger, a really terrific web site, and I am sorry to write, a bit under-appreciated, in my opinion. That document, in particular, but all of your submissions, really, is simply excellent.

I am so glad that you are willing to share with us, your insight, and opinions. They are, of course, not in precise accord with my own, but, that strikes me, at least, as of absolutely no significance. Your opinions are meritorious, not only because of the obvious, painstaking travail, you exhibit, in dissecting the evidence, but also because of your logic, precision, and most importantly, in my view, your effort to interpret the data from more than a single perspective, in order to unveil, in these ancient texts, the secret to the authors' genuine motivation and belief. You operate, in my view, in the best traditions of Thomas Aquinas. Well done, lad.
Roger Pearse
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Re: The Prospect of a Christian Interpolation in Tacitus

Post by Roger Pearse »

That's very kind of you - thank you.

I've always felt that opinion is something of limited value, and the best contribution that I can make is to facilitate access to sources.
rgprice
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Re: The Prospect of a Christian Interpolation in Tacitus

Post by rgprice »

Sorry to nerco this old thread, but just wanted to say that I find Carrier's argument persuasive. I agree that his mathematics are a distraction, as usual. It seems that Roger read mainly the first few pages but didn't finish it all. I agree that the opening arguments were the least persuasive part of this.

The real meat of the matter is that this passage in Tacitus stands alone as an island for some 300 years. Indeed, if we compare it even to Christian literature, we don't any Christian literature that can be definitively dated stating that Jesus was killed by Pilate until the mid/late second century.

But yes, to think that no one, for 300 years, made use of either the fact of this mass persecution or the existence of this passage is quite preposterous. Whether or not the event really happened, the mere existence of this passage circa 115 CE would have invited references to it at least from Latin scholars.
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: The Prospect of a Christian Interpolation in Tacitus

Post by Ben C. Smith »

rgprice wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 2:23 pmBut yes, to think that no one, for 300 years, made use of either the fact of this mass persecution or the existence of this passage is quite preposterous.
Is it? How common are references in antiquity to the Annals by anybody, whether Greek or Roman, Jew or Christian?
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GakuseiDon
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Re: The Prospect of a Christian Interpolation in Tacitus

Post by GakuseiDon »

rgprice wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 2:23 pmBut yes, to think that no one, for 300 years, made use of either the fact of this mass persecution or the existence of this passage is quite preposterous. Whether or not the event really happened, the mere existence of this passage circa 115 CE would have invited references to it at least from Latin scholars.
Please don't think I'm hunting you, because I'm not! But you make what appear to be extraordinarily confidence statements that arouse my curiosity. Who exactly should have made use of Tacitus's comment, and why? How many people were using Tacitus anyway?

Tertullian (writing around 200 CE) may have referenced Tacitus, or someone using Tacitus or used by Tacitus, in his "Apology" written to the pagans:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/t ... ian01.html
Consult your histories; you will there find that Nero was the first who assailed with the imperial sword the Christian sect, making profess then especially at Rome.
Tertullian also wrote in the same Apology:
There is also another and a greater necessity for our offering prayer in behalf of the emperors, nay, for the complete stability of the empire, and for Roman interests in general. For we know that a mighty shock impending over the whole earth--in fact, the very end of all things threatening dreadful woes---is only retarded by the continued existence of the Roman empire. We have no desire, then, to be overtaken by these dire events; and in praying that their coming may be delayed, we are lending our aid to Rome's duration.
The end of the world may be coming, but Christians like Tertullian are trying to hold it back, by supporting the wonderful Roman empire and the Roman emperors!

It speaks to a complex attitude towards the significance of the Roman empire, despite Jesus being believed to have been crucified under Pilate. Tertullian bringing up Nero and Domitian as persecutors of Christians seems to me a good propaganda point since those emperors had very bad reputations.

I'm not saying you're wrong, I'd just like to see more data to back up some of these statements you make. I'll leave you alone if you prefer! But if you are going to make those kinds of statements, can I ask you to bring data to back them up please? I'm interested in ancient beliefs, beyond just the question of historicity.
rgprice
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Re: The Prospect of a Christian Interpolation in Tacitus

Post by rgprice »

As I say, this attribution of the execution of Jesus to Pilate by Tacitus would be before the earliest datable reference to that claim by any Christian. Is it really reasonable that the first person to observe that Jesus was killed by Pilate is a non-Christian?

When is the next earliest datable attestation to Jesus having been killed by Pilate? Justin Martyr?

We know Martyr got it from a Gospel. Was there someone before him?

I'm assuming Martyr around 150 attests to Jesus being killed by Pilate is the otherwise earliest reference. Maybe there is someone before him?

Is it really reasonable that Lactantius wouldn't make mention of this?

The Tacitus passage stands out like an outlier among everything else we know. It only doesn't seem to stand out on the assumption that the Gospels were written in the 70s-90s CE, which may lead one to imagine that this was common knowledge by 115 CE. That's how I've long viewed it myself. But we don't really know when the Gospels were written, so if we take the Gospel out of the picture, you find really nothing else with this kind of statement until the mid second century as far as I know. I'd be happy yo be wrong on that.
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MrMacSon
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Re: The Prospect of a Christian Interpolation in Tacitus

Post by MrMacSon »

dud
Last edited by MrMacSon on Sat Jan 02, 2021 7:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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