The Prospect of a Christian Interpolation in Tacitus

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GakuseiDon
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Re: The Prospect of a Christian Interpolation in Tacitus

Post by GakuseiDon »

rgprice wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 4:31 pm As I say, this attribution of the execution of Jesus to Pilate by Tacitus would be before the earliest datable reference to that claim by any Christian. Is it really reasonable that the first person to observe that Jesus was killed by Pilate is a non-Christian?
At least phrase the question accurately: "Is it really reasonable that the earliest extant writings to observe that Jesus was killed by Pilate is from a non-Christian?"

To that question, I don't know. How do you define what is reasonable in this case? I can't see why it isn't reasonable, though at some point you'll need to collect data and date the Gospels and the other early letters, in order to determine which were prior.
rgprice wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 4:31 pmWhen is the next earliest datable attestation to Jesus having been killed by Pilate? Justin Martyr? We know Martyr got it from a Gospel. Was there someone before him?
Outside the Gospels: Ignatius, perhaps. He is usually dated between 110 and 130 CE, and mentions Pilate a few times in his letters.

For example, Ignatius to the Magnesians:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/t ... berts.html

These things [ I address to you], my beloved, not that I know any of you to be in such a state; but, as less than any of you, I desire to guard you beforehand, that ye fall not upon the hooks of vain doctrine, but that ye attain to full assurance in regard to the birth, and passion, and resurrection which took place in the time of the government of Pontius Pilate, being truly and certainly accomplished by Jesus Christ, who is our hope, from which may no one of you ever be turned aside.

rgprice wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 4:31 pmIs it really reasonable that Lactantius wouldn't make mention of this?
I don't know. Is it? How do you determine what is reasonable in this case? What is the data set that you are measuring the criterion of 'reasonableness' against?
rgprice wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 4:31 pmThe Tacitus passage stands out like an outlier among everything else we know. It only doesn't seem to stand out on the assumption that the Gospels were written in the 70s-90s CE, which may lead one to imagine that this was common knowledge by 115 CE. That's how I've long viewed it myself. But we don't really know when the Gospels were written, so if we take the Gospel out of the picture, you find really nothing else with this kind of statement until the mid second century as far as I know. I'd be happy yo be wrong on that.
I'll be interested to learn what you find out, though I'm not interested in any more "is that reasonable?" type questions that are without data.
Last edited by GakuseiDon on Sat Jan 02, 2021 7:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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MrMacSon
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Re: The Prospect of a Christian Interpolation in Tacitus

Post by MrMacSon »

rgprice wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 2:23 pm
... I find Carrier's argument persuasive. I agree that his mathematics are a distraction, as usual ...

The real meat of the matter is that this passage in Tacitus stands alone as an island for some 300 years. Indeed, if we compare it even to Christian literature, we don't [see/find] any Christian literature that can be definitively dated stating that Jesus was killed by Pilate until the mid/late second century.

But yes, to think that no one, for 300 years, made use of either the fact of this mass persecution or the existence of this passage is quite preposterous. Whether or not the event really happened, the mere existence of this passage circa 115 CE would have invited references to it at least from Latin scholars.

I presume you're referring to Carrier's proposition that just one sentence could have been inserted/ interpolated.

I think that's feasible, as is Jay Raskins' that just the names were changed ie. Tiberius inserted for Nero and Pontius Pilate for Porcius Festus
There are some other interesting aspects to the silence in late antiquity about Tacitus and especially about his Annals -
  • that the elderly emperor Marcus Claudius Tacitus, r. 275-6, had taken an interest in his historian namesake and had, in his brief reign, arranged works like Annals etc be copied and distributed (could they have been lost if Marcus Claudius Tacitus hadn't done that?)
Giuseppe
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Re: The Prospect of a Christian Interpolation in Tacitus

Post by Giuseppe »

The forger was Poggio Bracciolini.

His goal: to prove that Peter and Paul were martyrs in Rome in a time when the supremacy of Rome was going to be put in doubt.

He wrote Chrestiani because he was influenced by Tertullian about the Christians being called Chrestiani by Pagans.

Dante Alighieri would have placed Nero in Inferno but he ignored totally the Testimonium Taciteum.

Add to this the fact that Ignatius is an anti-marcionite forgery, and you have only Justin as earliest witness of Pilate killer of Jesus.
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Re: The Prospect of a Christian Interpolation in Tacitus

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

Giuseppe wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 10:21 pm The forger was Poggio Bracciolini.

His goal: to prove that Peter and Paul were martyrs in Rome in a time when the supremacy of Rome was going to be put in doubt.

He wrote Chrestiani because he was influenced by Tertullian about the Christians being called Chrestiani by Pagans.

Dante Alighieri would have placed Nero in Inferno but he ignored totally the Testimonium Taciteum.
So far, we know that in the times of Dante Alighieri it existed only one copy of the books 11-16 of Annales (written in the 11th century) in Monte Cassino.

And we know as well that Giovanni Boccaccio, famous for the “Decamerone”, visited Monte Cassino several times and knew the manuscript of Tacitus. In his work “On famous women” (written in 1361) Boccaccio described the Roman women Agrippina the Younger, Poppea Sabina, Pompeia Paulina, Epicharis and Triaria and evaluated books 12-16 of the Annales of Tacitus. Sometimes he followed Tacitus' report verbatim or paraphrased it, sometimes he added moral considerations - long before the alleged forgery by Poggio Bracciolini.
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Re: The Prospect of a Christian Interpolation in Tacitus

Post by Giuseppe »

Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote: Sun Jan 03, 2021 12:42 am long before the alleged forgery by Poggio Bracciolini.
My point is that Bracciolini interpolated the entire Testimonium Taciteum, not that he fabricated the entire book 15 of Annales.
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Re: The Prospect of a Christian Interpolation in Tacitus

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

Giuseppe wrote: Sun Jan 03, 2021 1:05 am
Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote: Sun Jan 03, 2021 12:42 am long before the alleged forgery by Poggio Bracciolini.
My point is that Bracciolini interpolated the entire Testimonium Taciteum, not that he fabricated the entire book 15 of Annales.
The manuscript was written in the Beneventan script. This script was in use from the 8th century until the 13th century (although there are few examples from as late as the 16th century). The Testimonium Taciteum was undoubtedly written by the same scribe.
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Re: The Prospect of a Christian Interpolation in Tacitus

Post by Giuseppe »

Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote: Sun Jan 03, 2021 1:26 am (although there are few examples from as late as the 16th century)
given the existence of these few examples, how can you infer that :

The Testimonium Taciteum was undoubtedly written by the same scribe.
Note that the geographical precision (the gardens of Nero) is designed precisely to make the point that the seat of the Papacy is providentially located there.

Why this fake? Because just then the scholars were beginning to question the origins of the papacy. We are in the aftermath of the great Western schism, and the Council of Constance has particularly diminished the powers of the pope: it will become important to establish that he is the successor of St. Peter, but none text signals Peter's coming to Rome. But the coincidence of the discovery of the manuscript, at the precise moment when there was need of it, would have been enough to make this little miracle suspect.

The my point is that the mention of chrestiani in place of christiani, far from going against the hypothesis Poggio forger of the passage, really supports it.
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Re: The Prospect of a Christian Interpolation in Tacitus

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

rgprice wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 2:23 pm Sorry to nerco this old thread, but just wanted to say that I find Carrier's argument persuasive. I agree that his mathematics are a distraction, as usual. It seems that Roger read mainly the first few pages but didn't finish it all. I agree that the opening arguments were the least persuasive part of this.

The real meat of the matter is that this passage in Tacitus stands alone as an island for some 300 years. Indeed, if we compare it even to Christian literature, we don't any Christian literature that can be definitively dated stating that Jesus was killed by Pilate until the mid/late second century.

But yes, to think that no one, for 300 years, made use of either the fact of this mass persecution or the existence of this passage is quite preposterous. Whether or not the event really happened, the mere existence of this passage circa 115 CE would have invited references to it at least from Latin scholars.
(Just for the record, I think that the Testimonium Flavianum is a complete forgery and interpolation).

A few years ago I made some linguistic tests of the Testimonium Taciteum in relation to the Latin of Tacitus and consider it to be most likely authentic.

auctor nominis eius Christus Tiberio imperitante per procuratorem Pontium Pilatum supplicio adfectus erat; repressaque in praesens exitiabilis superstitio rursum erumpebat, non modo per Iudaeam, originem eius mali, sed per urbem etiam, quo cuncta undique atrocia aut pudenda confluunt celebranturque.

Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular.

1) word usage

...Tiberio imperitante” (during the reign of Tiberius)
Annales 3, 24: ... Tiberio imperitante; Annales 4, 62: ... imperitante Tiberio; Annales 13, 32: ... imperitante Claudio; Annales 13, 42: ... imperitante Claudio

... per procuratorem Pontium Pilatum” (by the procurator, Pontius Pilatus)
Annales 12, 21: ... per Iunium Cilonem, procuratorem Ponti (After this, Mithridates was given up and brought to Rome by Junius Cilo, the procurator of Pontus)

...supplicio adfectus erat” (suffered the extreme penalty)
Annales 5, 9: ... supplicio adfici virginem (punishment of a virgin)


2) line of thought and word usage

- troublemakers (auctor) and Roman authorities with names and titles

Annales 15, 44
Christus, from whom the name had its origin (auctor nominis), suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus
Annales 4,27
Originator of the movement T. Curtisius (auctor tumultus T. Curtisius) ... Curtius Lupus, the quæstor broke up the seditious combination in its very first beginnings (Curtius Lupus quaestor) ... Staius, a tribune, with a strong detachment, by whom the ringleader himself, with his most daring followers, were brought prisoners to Rome (Staius tribunus)

- a movement is stopped for a moment by an execution, but then broke out again

Annales 15, 44
Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty (supplicio) during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked (repressaque) for the moment, again broke out not only in Judæa, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome,
Annales 1, 38
Meanwhile there was an outbreak among the Chauci, begun by some veterans of the mutinous legions on garrison duty. They were quelled (repressi) for a time by the instant execution (supplicio) of two soldiers. ... Then, when the commotion increased, ...


3) The assertions of Annales 15.44 agree with Tacitus’ assertions. Three examples

- Tacitus showed that Nero feared public opinion
Annales 15.44
...did not banish the sinister belief that the conflagration was the result of an order. Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt
Annales 14.13
While Nero was lingering in the towns of Campania, doubting how he should enter Rome, whether he would find the Senate submissive and the populace enthusiastic, all the vilest courtiers, and of these never had a court a more abundant crop, argued against his hesitation by assuring him that Agrippina's name was hated and that her death had heightened his popularity.
Annales 14.60
Octavia, however, was dismissed under the form of an ordinary divorce, and received possession of the house of Burrus and of the estates of Plautus, an ill-starred gift. She was soon afterwards banished to Campania under military surveillance. This led to incessant and outspoken remonstrances among the common people, who have less discretion and are exposed to fewer dangers than others from the insignificance of their position. Upon this Nero, though he did not repent of his outrage, restored to Octavia her position as wife.


- Tacitus’ strong moral judgements
Annales 15.44
... even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular
Annales 14.15
Hence a rank growth of abominations and of all infamy. Never did a more filthy rabble add a worse licentiousness to our long corrupted morals.


- Tacitus’ religious “intolerance”
Annales 15.44
... a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. ... and a most mischievous superstition ... again broke out not only in Judea, the first source of the evil
Historiae 5.5
This worship, however introduced, is upheld by its antiquity; all their other customs, which are at once perverse and disgusting, owe their strength to their very badness. The most degraded out of other races, scorning their national beliefs, brought to them their contributions and presents. This augmented the wealth of the Jews, as also did the fact, that among themselves they are inflexibly honest and ever ready to shew compassion, though they regard the rest of mankind with all the hatred of enemies.


4) The Testimonium Taciteum has a literary structure in the form of an intercalation.

A - Consequently, to get rid of the report,
B - ...... Nero fastened the guilt and
C - ............ inflicted the most exquisite tortures on
D - ....................... a class hated for their abominations,
E - ................................ called Chrestians by the populace.

E’ - ............................... Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme
..................................... penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our
..................................... procurators, Pontius Pilatus,
D’ - ...................... and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment,
............................ again broke out not only in Judea, the first source of the evil, but even
............................ in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world
............................ find their centre and become popular.
C’ - .............. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon
................... their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the
................... crime of firing the city as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was
................... added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and
................... perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt,
................... to serve as a nightly illumination when daylight had expired.
B’ - ..... Nero offered his gardens for the spectacle, and was exhibiting a show in the circus
........... while he mingled with the people in the dress of a charioteer or stood aloft on a car.

Ben C. Smith wrote: Sed non ope humana, non largitionibus principis aut deum placamentis decedebat infamia, quin iussum incendium crederetur. ergo abolendo rumori Nero subdidit reos et quaesitissimis poenis adfecit quos per flagitia invisos vulgus Christianos appellabat. auctor nominis eius Christus Tiberio imperitante per procuratorem Pontium Pilatum supplicio adfectus erat; repressaque in praesens exitiabilis superstitio rursum erumpebat, non modo per Iudaeam, originem eius mali, sed per urbem etiam, quo cuncta undique atrocia aut pudenda confluunt celebranturque. igitur primum correpti qui fatebantur, deinde indicio eorum multitudo ingens haud proinde in crimine incendii quam odio humani generis convicti sunt. et pereuntibus addita ludibria, ut ferarum tergis contecti laniatu canum interirent aut crucibus adfixi aut flammandi atque, ubi defecisset dies, in usu{m} nocturni luminis urerentur. hortos suos ei spectaculo Nero obtulerat, et circense ludicrum edebat, habitu aurigae permixtus plebi vel curriculo insistens. unde quamquam adversus sontes et novissima exempla meritos miseratio oriebatur, tamquam non utilitate publica, sed in saevitiam unius absumerentur.

But all human efforts, all the lavish gifts of the emperor, and the propitiations of the gods, did not banish the sinister belief that the conflagration was the result of an order. Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination when daylight had expired. Nero offered his gardens for the spectacle, and was exhibiting a show in the circus while he mingled with the people in the dress of a charioteer or stood aloft on a car. Hence, even for criminals who deserved extreme and exemplary punishment, there arose a feeling of compassion; for it was not, as it seemed, for the public good but rather to glut the cruelty of one man that they were being destroyed.

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Re: The Prospect of a Christian Interpolation in Tacitus

Post by Giuseppe »

Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote: Sun Jan 03, 2021 2:14 am (Just for the record, I think that the Testimonium Flavianum is a complete forgery and interpolation).
hence you know that the Testimonium Flavianum is written in perfect Josephian style.
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Re: The Prospect of a Christian Interpolation in Tacitus

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

Giuseppe wrote: Sun Jan 03, 2021 2:38 am hence you know that the Testimonium Flavianum is written in perfect Josephian style.
My dear friend Giuseppe, you may forgive me that I have more faith in our own Ken Olson on this point.

Ken Olson, "A Eusebian Reading of the Testimonium Flavianum"
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