rgprice wrote: ↑Sat Jan 02, 2021 2:23 pm
Sorry to nerco this old thread, but just wanted to say that I find Carrier's argument persuasive. I agree that his mathematics are a distraction, as usual. It seems that Roger read mainly the first few pages but didn't finish it all. I agree that the opening arguments were the least persuasive part of this.
The real meat of the matter is that this passage in Tacitus stands alone as an island for some 300 years. Indeed, if we compare it even to Christian literature, we don't any Christian literature that can be definitively dated stating that Jesus was killed by Pilate until the mid/late second century.
But yes, to think that no one, for 300 years, made use of either the fact of this mass persecution or the existence of this passage is quite preposterous. Whether or not the event really happened, the mere existence of this passage circa 115 CE would have invited references to it at least from Latin scholars.
(Just for the record, I think that the Testimonium
Flavianum is a complete forgery and interpolation).
A few years ago I made some linguistic tests of the Testimonium Taciteum in relation to the Latin of Tacitus and consider it to be most likely authentic.
auctor nominis eius Christus Tiberio imperitante per procuratorem Pontium Pilatum supplicio adfectus erat; repressaque in praesens exitiabilis superstitio rursum erumpebat, non modo per Iudaeam, originem eius mali, sed per urbem etiam, quo cuncta undique atrocia aut pudenda confluunt celebranturque.
Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular.
1) word usage
„
...Tiberio imperitante” (during the reign of Tiberius)
Annales
3, 24: ... Tiberio imperitante; Annales
4, 62: ... imperitante Tiberio; Annales
13, 32: ... imperitante Claudio; Annales
13, 42: ... imperitante Claudio
„
... per procuratorem Pontium Pilatum” (by the procurator, Pontius Pilatus)
Annales 12, 21: ... per Iunium Cilonem, procuratorem Ponti (After this, Mithridates was given up and brought to Rome by Junius Cilo, the procurator of Pontus)
„
...supplicio adfectus erat” (suffered the extreme penalty)
Annales 5, 9: ... supplicio adfici virginem (punishment of a virgin)
2) line of thought and word usage
- troublemakers (auctor) and Roman authorities with names and titles
Annales 15, 44
Christus, from whom the name had its origin (auctor nominis), suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus |
Annales 4,27
Originator of the movement T. Curtisius (auctor tumultus T. Curtisius) ... Curtius Lupus, the quæstor broke up the seditious combination in its very first beginnings (Curtius Lupus quaestor) ... Staius, a tribune, with a strong detachment, by whom the ringleader himself, with his most daring followers, were brought prisoners to Rome (Staius tribunus) |
- a movement is stopped for a moment by an execution, but then broke out again
Annales 15, 44
Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty (supplicio) during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked (repressaque) for the moment, again broke out not only in Judæa, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, |
Annales 1, 38
Meanwhile there was an outbreak among the Chauci, begun by some veterans of the mutinous legions on garrison duty. They were quelled (repressi) for a time by the instant execution (supplicio) of two soldiers. ... Then, when the commotion increased, ... |
3) The assertions of Annales 15.44 agree with Tacitus’ assertions. Three examples
- Tacitus showed that Nero feared public opinion
Annales 15.44
...did not banish the sinister belief that the conflagration was the result of an order. Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt |
Annales 14.13
While Nero was lingering in the towns of Campania, doubting how he should enter Rome, whether he would find the Senate submissive and the populace enthusiastic, all the vilest courtiers, and of these never had a court a more abundant crop, argued against his hesitation by assuring him that Agrippina's name was hated and that her death had heightened his popularity. |
Annales 14.60
Octavia, however, was dismissed under the form of an ordinary divorce, and received possession of the house of Burrus and of the estates of Plautus, an ill-starred gift. She was soon afterwards banished to Campania under military surveillance. This led to incessant and outspoken remonstrances among the common people, who have less discretion and are exposed to fewer dangers than others from the insignificance of their position. Upon this Nero, though he did not repent of his outrage, restored to Octavia her position as wife. |
- Tacitus’ strong moral judgements
Annales 15.44
... even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular |
Annales 14.15
Hence a rank growth of abominations and of all infamy. Never did a more filthy rabble add a worse licentiousness to our long corrupted morals. |
- Tacitus’ religious “intolerance”
Annales 15.44
... a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. ... and a most mischievous superstition ... again broke out not only in Judea, the first source of the evil |
Historiae 5.5
This worship, however introduced, is upheld by its antiquity; all their other customs, which are at once perverse and disgusting, owe their strength to their very badness. The most degraded out of other races, scorning their national beliefs, brought to them their contributions and presents. This augmented the wealth of the Jews, as also did the fact, that among themselves they are inflexibly honest and ever ready to shew compassion, though they regard the rest of mankind with all the hatred of enemies. |
4) The Testimonium Taciteum has a literary structure in the form of an intercalation.
A - Consequently,
to get rid of the report,
B - ......
Nero fastened the guilt and
C - ............ inflicted the
most exquisite tortures on
D - ....................... a class hated for their
abominations,
E - ................................ called
Chrestians by the populace.
E’ - ...............................
Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme
..................................... penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our
..................................... procurators, Pontius Pilatus,
D’ - ...................... and a most
mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment,
............................ again broke out not only in Judea, the first
source of the evil, but even
............................ in Rome, where
all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world
............................ find their centre and become popular.
C’ - .............. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon
................... their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the
................... crime of firing the city as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was
................... added to their deaths.
Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and
...................
perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt,
...................
to serve as a nightly illumination when daylight had expired.
B’ - .....
Nero offered his gardens for the spectacle, and was exhibiting a show in the circus
........... while he mingled with the people in the dress of a charioteer or stood aloft on a car.
Ben C. Smith wrote:
Sed non ope humana, non largitionibus principis aut deum placamentis decedebat infamia, quin iussum incendium crederetur. ergo abolendo rumori Nero subdidit reos et quaesitissimis poenis adfecit quos per flagitia invisos vulgus Christianos appellabat. auctor nominis eius Christus Tiberio imperitante per procuratorem Pontium Pilatum supplicio adfectus erat; repressaque in praesens exitiabilis superstitio rursum erumpebat, non modo per Iudaeam, originem eius mali, sed per urbem etiam, quo cuncta undique atrocia aut pudenda confluunt celebranturque. igitur primum correpti qui fatebantur, deinde indicio eorum multitudo ingens haud proinde in crimine incendii quam odio humani generis convicti sunt. et pereuntibus addita ludibria, ut ferarum tergis contecti laniatu canum interirent aut crucibus adfixi aut flammandi atque, ubi defecisset dies, in usu{m} nocturni luminis urerentur. hortos suos ei spectaculo Nero obtulerat, et circense ludicrum edebat, habitu aurigae permixtus plebi vel curriculo insistens. unde quamquam adversus sontes et novissima exempla meritos miseratio oriebatur, tamquam non utilitate publica, sed in saevitiam unius absumerentur.
But all human efforts, all the lavish gifts of the emperor, and the propitiations of the gods, did not banish the sinister belief that the conflagration was the result of an order. Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination when daylight had expired. Nero offered his gardens for the spectacle, and was exhibiting a show in the circus while he mingled with the people in the dress of a charioteer or stood aloft on a car. Hence, even for criminals who deserved extreme and exemplary punishment, there arose a feeling of compassion; for it was not, as it seemed, for the public good but rather to glut the cruelty of one man that they were being destroyed.