in defence of astrotheology

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Ulan
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Re: in defence of astrotheology

Post by Ulan »

The Crow wrote:
Ulan wrote:
The Crow wrote:Man! This thread still going? When is the trial? I think the inquest has lasted long enough.
As Robert failed to provide any evidence for any of his fanciful stories, aside from some possible allusion to the zodiac in Revelations, I guess we can put astrotheology to rest. He had a chance to get the ball rolling and dropped it. Maybe another time.

So it looks like astrotheology is some modern New Age movement without any relevance to the origins of Christianity.
Yep...makes me glad I gave up debating religion a long time ago its full of opinions and everybody thinks theirs is the right one. :confusedsmiley:
It's not about what we think. This is a point Robert Tulip has misunderstood during the length of the whole conversation in this thread. Speculate all you want. As I said, I find his idea about Christ crucified in the sky an intriguing and clever idea. However, he has yet to provide evidence that anyone at the time of the foundation of Christianity shared this thought. His long list of sentence snippets doesn't provide such evidence, because none deals with Christ crucified in the sky. So we are still waiting and have to listen to his long tangents that have nothing to do with this point.
Clive
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Re: in defence of astrotheology

Post by Clive »

Most ancient authors did not mention precession and, perhaps, did not know of it.
The Mithraic Mysteries, colloquially also known as Mithraism, was a 1st-4th century neo-platonic, mystery cult of the Roman god Mithras. The near-total lack of written descriptions or scripture necessitates a reconstruction of beliefs and practices from the archaeological evidence, such as that found in Mithraic temples (in modern times called mithraea), which were real or artificial "caves" representing the cosmos. Until the 1970s most scholars followed Franz Cumont in identifying Mithras as a continuation of the Persian god Mithra. Cumont's continuity hypothesis, and his concomitant theory that the astrological component was a late and unimportant accretion, is no longer followed. Today, the cult and its beliefs are recognized as a product of (Greco-)Roman thought, with an astrological component even more heavily pronounced than the already very astrology-centric Roman beliefs generally were. The details, however, are debated.

As far as axial precession is concerned, one scholar of Mithraism, David Ulansey, has interpreted Mithras (Mithras Sol Invictus – the unconquerable sun) as a second sun or star that is responsible for precession. He suggests the cult may have been inspired by Hipparchus' discovery of precession. Part of his analysis is based on the tauroctony, an image of Mithras sacrificing a bull, found in most of the temples. According to Ulansey, the tauroctony is a star chart. Mithras is a second sun or hyper-cosmic sun and/or the constellation Perseus, and the bull is Taurus, a constellation of the zodiac. In an earlier astrological age, the vernal equinox had taken place when the Sun was in Taurus. The tauroctony, by this reasoning, commemorated Mithras-Perseus ending the "Age of Taurus" (about 2000 BC based on the Vernal Equinox – or about 11,500 BC based on the Autumnal Equinox).

The iconography also contains two torch bearing boys (Cautes and Cautopates) on each side of the zodiac. Ulansey, and Walter Cruttenden in his book Lost Star of Myth and Time, interpret these to mean ages of growth and decay, or enlightenment and darkness; primal elements of the cosmic progression. Thus Mithraism is thought to have something to do with the changing ages within the precession cycle or Great Year (Plato's term for one complete precession of the equinox).

Ulansey's theory has not received much support from Mithraic scholars or from scholars of astrological beliefs.
Most ancient authors did not mention precession and, perhaps, did not know of it.

If precession was not widely known, a cross as part of this is even less likely to be known. And it does look like later imports of gnostic ideas to an evolving xianity.
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Re: in defence of astrotheology

Post by Clive »

I thought xian art also shows the cross as much later.
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Leucius Charinus
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Re: in defence of astrotheology

Post by Leucius Charinus »

Anyone interested in an in-depth analysis of how the authors of a range of texts within the NHC constructed their cosmology could do no better than reading through APOSTLES as ARCHONS by April De Conick. Subtitled The Fight for Authority and the Emergence of Gnosticism in the Tchacos Codex and Other Early Christian literature.
It is available from her website but is an image capture rather than text.

FWIW I read through this and made some notes on the fly with plenty of typos.
Here they are FWIW:

  • VID: aprildeconick.com ... CNN's "New Day" March 13


    "[Irenaeus] told us that Judas in this text [gJudas] is a hero, but now that we have the actual text, it calls Judas a demon. So really he's not much different from the Judas we see in the NT."

    Why do you think there was such a discrepency?

    Between what Irenaeus tells us and what we have today?

    Yes

    "I think that Irenaeus must have been mistaken or
    um or - whether intentionally or accidentally."


    ******************************************************************

    Awaken your divine nature to God. Strengthen your soul (to be) without evil...Seek what is permanent, what is not generated. The Father of everything summons you...You have not come to suffer. Rather you have come to escape from what binds you. Release yourself, and what has bound you will be undone. Save yourself, so that what is (in you) may be saved...Why are you hesitating? Turn around when you are sought. When you are summoned, listen.

    Zostrianos 130.19-131.19; translation is from April de Conick.

    http://aprildeconick.com/forbiddengospe ... -june-8-14

    ******************************************************************

    APOSTLES as ARCHONS - April De Conick
    The Fight for Authority and the Emergence of Gnosticism
    in the Tchacos Codex and Other Early Christian literature.


    Correpondences between the Apostles and the Archons

    p.244

    GNOSTIC ASTROLOGY

    "As above. So below"

    Heaven and earth correspondence.

    cites the Valentinian Theodotus "the stars themselves do nothing except show the activity of the ruling powers, just as the flight of birds it points out something but does nothing."

    The Gnostic literature, although not unique in its astrological underpinnings, is obsessed with mapping the correspondences between the heaven and the earth. The reason for this is that the Gnostic Christian systems of salvation depend upon altering the cosmic structures, physically changing the universe from a cage that traps the spirit to a portal that frees it. The universe before the advent of the Saviour Jesus, is not only the creation of a lesser god - who is described as arrogant, jealous, ignorant, and in some cases, evil - but it functions as a prison for the spirit. The prison guards are the celestial beings, the rulers or archons, who reside in the planetary spheres above the earth and in the sublunar realm where the abyss or Hades was believed to be.


    Number of archons

    SEVEN: the seven planets: Sat, Jup, Mars, Sun, Venus, Merc, Moon

    TWELVE: the constellations of the zodiac: Leo, Virgo, Libra, Scorpio, Sag, Cap, Aqu, Pisces, Ari, Tau, Gem, Can.

    p.247

    discussion of Egyptian decan*



    The origins of the Ialdabaoth god are connected to a particular Egyptian decan.*


    Fallen spirit ...



    Platonic philosopher Numenius "taught that as the psyche descended from the upper sphere of the fixed stars, it passed through certain star gates into the lower planetary spheres where certain faculties accumulated in the soul. Some of these faculties were positive while others were negative. Macrobius says that the natural philosophers attribute ...

    to Saturn - the rational powers of the soul
    to Jupiter - the active
    to Mars - the spirited
    to the Sun - the perceptive
    to Venus - the appetitive
    to Mercury - the linguistic
    to the Moon - the nutritive

    [Macrobius, Comm. Scipio 1.12.1-16]


    Similar lists are attributed to Proclus and Servius


    The Hermetic traditions understood these accumulations to be largely negative.

    Negative equations in the Valentinian Gospel of Mary where ...

    from Saturn - "the wisdom of the wrathful person"
    from Jupiter - "the foolish understanding of the flesh"
    from Mars - "the rule of the flesh"
    from the Sun - "the zeal for death"
    from Venus (2nd planet) - "desire"
    from Mercury (3rd planet) - "ignorance"
    from the Moon - "darkness"

    In Gnostic literature these inclinations are largely negative ones,
    because they are derived from capricious or malicious archons.


    In the Apochyphon of John psychic traits are given to the descending soul ..
    each planetary archon is trying to fashion Adam's soul to imitate the image
    of the first perfect man which had been revealed to them from above.

    "And they created by means of their respective powers in correspondence
    with the characteristics which were given. And each authority supplied
    a characteristic in the form of the image which he had seen in its natural (form).

    The Moon associated with the archon Athoth, is called the "excellent" planet.


    p.249


    360 degrees = 365 different daemons
    Basilides "melothesia" - single degree of the zodiac (monomoiriai)



    The way that the universe and human being were designed by the archons
    means that the spirit is entrapped in the material world.



    p.250


    ... Gnostic systems rely on the descent of redeemer gods into the universe to save the spirit.
    The most powerful redeemer god in the Gnostic Christian system is "J".


    p.251



    Pseudo-Clementine literature - Homilies
    "The lord had 12 apostles bearing the number of the 12 months of the sun"

    Artefact: LAMP with Jesus at centre and busts of 12 apostles in zodiac (5th century)




    p.253


    If Orosius and Turibius fairly present Priscillian's teaching on astrology ...

    Priscillians believed that souls were derived from a storehouse, and salvation
    dependended on their ability to conquer the bodies in which they had been bound
    by evil archons when they descended through the spheres. The bodies had been
    sealed with a written bond saying that they were the property of these evil
    powers trapping the souls within.




    In the Gnostic story Jesus replaced the old cosmic pole, providing a restructuring
    of the cosmos which allowed for the escape of the trapped spirit. From this it
    followed, that his disciples must stand in for the Zodiacal signs, which were the
    archons. Whether this was a positive or negative correspondence, depends on both
    the peculiar Gnostic tradition engaging the correspondence and the date of the text
    in which this discussion is occurring. In the end, uderstanding these
    correspondences can help us resolve wahy Gnosticism is. It can help us see how
    Gnosticism is the culmination of a religio-social process that began as a lodge
    movement supplementing the synogogue and the church and ended as a new religious
    movement competing with them and persecuted by them.



    p.254


    GOSPEL OF JUDAS

    The cosmic structures laid out in the mid-second century Gospel of Judas,
    from the beginning to the end of this gospel, mirror that of a group of
    Sethian Christians. The entire gospel is dependent upon a cosmos with
    the number thirteen as its ordering principle.

    Marvin Meyer has suggested that the thirteenth realm in the gospel of Judas
    is likely this same thirteenth realm from which Pistis Sophia is separated
    in a gnostic text which bears her name.

    Meyer:

    "Judas in the gJudas is separated from the divine realms above, even though
    he knows and professes the mysteries of the divine and the origin of the
    saviour; he goes through grief and persecution as a "daimon" confined to
    this world below; he is enlightened with revelations that no human will
    ever see; and at last he is said to be on his way, much like Sophia, to
    the thirteenth aeon of gnostic lore".


    p.255


    Meyer's equation of the thirteenth Aeon, the residence of Pistis Sophia,
    with the residence of Judas is problematic and unconvincing.


    [de Conick thinks there is a 200 year difference between the two texts]

    Pistis Sophia reliant on the Books of Jeu (3rd century)




    THIRTEEN REALMS and THEIR ARCHONS

    it appears that the author of the gJudas knows a version of the Sethian myth
    in which Nebro-Ialdabaoth and his lieutenant Saklas live in a cloud in Choas.
    .... Many named demiurge Ialdabaoth



    p.256


    It appears that the Gospel of Judas is based on a system in which there are
    twelve cosmic realms twelve apportioned rulers, seven of them planetary,
    five of them sublunar in the abyss.

    Above these twelve archons and realms is the thirteenth cosmic realm, the
    abode of the "apostate" Archon, Nebro-Ialdabaoth, and Saklas.

    In astrological terms it is to be identified with the realm of the fixed
    stars, called the eighth sphere, since the seven planetary spheres were
    immediately below it. It may not be coincidental that this sphere, also
    known as "aplanes", is where some middle Platonic philosophers placed the
    Elysian fields. [cf Macrobius, Comm Scipio 1.11.8]

    --- "afterlife Isle"


    This cosmic structure is held in common with one of our earlier Sethian
    texts the Apocryphon of John (c.110-125 CE). According to this text the
    triple named demiurge Ialdabaoth-Saklas-Samael, left the regions where his mother
    Sophia lived in order to create twelve Archons to rule over the cosmic realms
    below him. Seven kings he placed over the seven firmaments of the heavens,
    and five kings over the depth of the Abyss so that they would reign.


    p.257


    In John's system as in Judas' we now have twelve Archons below the demiurge,
    seven of wehich are aligned with the planets and five which rule Hades.
    These five likely correspond to the five gods traditionally found in the
    underworld palace both in the Greek tradition (Hades, Persephone, Minos,
    Rhadamanthas, and Aeacus) and in the Egyptian (Osiris, Isis, Horus, Thoth, and Anubis)

    This means that the demiurge resides in a thirteenth realm which astrologically
    corresponds to the realm of the fixed stars just beyond the planets.




    Gospel of the Egyptians


    Sethian.

    In a cloud above Chaos and Hades, Saklas and Nebruel "the great daimon" dwell.
    The two become "the earth's spirit of conception" which creates twelve realms
    below and twelve archons to rule over Chaos and Hades.

    Jesus in fact conquered the archons when "he nailed the powers of the thirteen
    realms" at his crucifixion. Indeed like Jesus the faithful are supposed to
    "renounce the world and the god of the thirteen realms".



    Marsenes --- knows thirteen == early 4th century non christian

    created by Sethian gnostics who were involved in Neoplatonic metaphysical discussions

    "Platonizing Sethian treatise" along with Zostrianos, the three Steles of Seth, and Allogenes



    p.258


    The manuscripts of the Apocryphon of John and the Gospel of the Egyptians give
    alternative lists of the names of the Twelve Archons.

    NHC II 10.28-11.4
    NHC IV 17.1-5
    BG 40.5-18
    NHC III 16.20-17.5
    NHC III 58.6-23

    p.259

    The list of the five archons in the Gospel of Judas aligns with the first five archons
    in these above lists (Athoth, Harmas, Kalioumbri, Yabel, Adonaiu-Sabaoth) although the
    author has identified them as the Abyss daimons rather than the planetary ones.
    (maybe he made a mistake)


    p.259
    RE: gJudas


    The epithet of this Archon [Athoth] is "excellent" (chrestos???)
    identified by the standard abbreviation XC or XPC which is often confused with (christos???)

    In the Apocryphon of John Athoth is the first Power "Excellence" (XPC).





    p.260


    JUDAS as IALDABAOTH

    The gJudas ... identifies thr twelve planetary and abyss archons with the twelve disciples
    (including Matthias) while the thirteenth daimon is said to be Judas. Jesus directly
    addresses Judas as the Thirteenth Daimon.


    p.262

    In the Second Treatise of the Great Seth the author calls the Apostolic
    atonement doctrine a "joke" of the archons who "proclaim a doctrine of a dead man and lies".
    Treat, Seth NHC VII 2.60.13-22



    p.267

    A SEPARATIST MOVEMENT

    Whoever wrote the gJudas is developing this standard Sethian teaching about the ignorance
    of the disciples of JEsus in order to attack the Apostolic Church. The author does this
    by identifying its apostolic authorities with ignorant and rebellious archons, demons who
    curse the very demon who made possible their atonement. The reason that the author portrays
    the apostles so harshly is not because he hates Christianity. Rather, I think that he
    worried that many Christians were being lead astray by the Apostolic Church, which claimed
    to rely on teachings derived from the Twelve.


    p.268

    If the Apostolic Church was ruled by Judas the apostate archon and the other disciples
    were subordinate archons, how much could the Bishops and priests of the Apostolic Church
    really know? Evidently the Sethian Christians who wrote this gospel saw themselves as
    the only Christian church that possessed the Truth. As such they identified themselves
    as a separate non-conformist church competing with the Apostolic Church, which they
    believed was defunct.



    THEODOTUS the VALENTINIAN


    "The apostles were substituted for the twelve igns of the zodiac, for,
    just as birth is directed by them, so is rebirth by the apostles."


    p.284


    PISTIS SOPHIA


    A 4th century text, the PS represents the height of Gnostic speculation
    about cosmic correspodences. The text is dependent on the late 3rd century
    Book of Jeu, and together they appear to comprise a formulaic compendium
    of Gnosis. The cosmology assumed by these books is not that of a single
    school of Gnosis, but rather an eclectic blend of Sethian, Valentinian
    and Manichaean teachings.


    THE THIRTEENTH AEON

    The God-world in PS is called the "Treasury of Light".
    Below this is the thirteenth Aeon, a divine world of 24 emanations

Those who wish to date some of these texts to the 2nd century (as does de Conick and much of mainstream) as a result have this cosmology in the 2nd century. This is the only defence I can see at the moment for an early version of astrotheology in the writings of people who are being assumed to be [non canonical] Christians. It may be a bit late however these references and systems of references seem to be often repeated themes in the NHC.





LC
A "cobbler of fables" [Augustine]; "Leucius is the disciple of the devil" [Decretum Gelasianum]; and his books "should be utterly swept away and burned" [Pope Leo I]; they are the "source and mother of all heresy" [Photius]
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Peter Kirby
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Re: in defence of astrotheology

Post by Peter Kirby »

Robert Tulip wrote:
Peter Kirby wrote: Just a few questions at this time:
(1) Outside of Christianity, what do we know regarding people in the general period of 200 BC to 300 CE, the period of the origins of Christianity, who are supposed to have been refashioning their beliefs according to their observations of the changing night sky? What is the milieu of this type of organization? Who were they, where were they, and why were they doing what they were doing? What sources do we have?
This context is the rise of Hellenistic science. The refashioning of beliefs in the Common Era involved the development of modus vivendi, ways of living together, where formerly separate mythologies were put together.

The invention of Serapis is a primary example in this period of how beliefs were deliberately refashioned, and we know that Serapis was routinely depicted as surrounded by the twelve signs of the zodiac. I find the stories of the Greek thinkers Euclid and Hipparchus instructive in terms of defining the cultural mileau that placed precession at the secret centre of a logical worldview, with Hipparchus’ observation of precession a key to “refashioning their beliefs according to their observations of the changing night sky.”

Ancient religions which were based on pure traditional fantasy could no longer be literally believed by well informed people, as Socrates found to his cost with his execution for impiety. Rational veneration of the role of Socrates in promoting the shift from mythos to logos as the basis of understanding is behind the rise of western science. In this context, Euclid’s geometry and Hipparchus’ astronomy brought new logical understanding of reality which could not be ignored by serious thinkers.

It makes sense to explore Christianity as a serious scientific cosmology, emerging from the synthesis of Jewish myth and Greek logic upon a broad Eastern cultural framework, with the popular myths of Jesus serving as introduction to deeper teachings. The coherent framework of these deeper teachings, especially within the Gnostic Hermetic milieu of Alexandria that produced the Gospels of Mark and John and the imagery of the Apocalypse, was alas largely lost in the turmoil of the mass appeal of the popular story. We can now work to continue the reconstruction of these deeper teachings, seeing further by standing on the shoulders of neglected giants such as Charles Dupuis and Alvin Boyd Kuhn.
Well, I found something that at least could be relevant (on Wikipedia)...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mithraic_mysteries
Taking a different view from other modern scholars, Ulansey argues that the Mithraic mysteries began in the Greco-Roman world as a religious response to the discovery by the Greek astronomer Hipparchus of the astronomical phenomenon of the precession of the equinoxes — a discovery that amounted to discovering that the entire cosmos was moving in a hitherto unknown way. This new cosmic motion, he suggests, was seen by the founders of Mithraism as indicating the existence of a powerful new god capable of shifting the cosmic spheres and thereby controlling the universe.
Ulansey, D., The origins of the Mithraic mysteries, p. 77f

Some literary sources and some of the physical remains of Mithraism (with the symbolism for the zodiac around the central scene) indicate that the zodiac was important in some strands of Mithraism.
"... almost every critical biblical position was earlier advanced by skeptics." - Raymond Brown
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Re: in defence of astrotheology

Post by andrewcriddle »

Peter Kirby wrote: Well, I found something that at least could be relevant (on Wikipedia)...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mithraic_mysteries
Taking a different view from other modern scholars, Ulansey argues that the Mithraic mysteries began in the Greco-Roman world as a religious response to the discovery by the Greek astronomer Hipparchus of the astronomical phenomenon of the precession of the equinoxes — a discovery that amounted to discovering that the entire cosmos was moving in a hitherto unknown way. This new cosmic motion, he suggests, was seen by the founders of Mithraism as indicating the existence of a powerful new god capable of shifting the cosmic spheres and thereby controlling the universe.
Ulansey, D., The origins of the Mithraic mysteries, p. 77f

Some literary sources and some of the physical remains of Mithraism (with the symbolism for the zodiac around the central scene) indicate that the zodiac was important in some strands of Mithraism.
The idea that the Zodiac and the constellations in general were very important in Mithraism is supported by several scholars of Mithraism such as Roger Beck and has a lot of evidence in its favour.

The idea that the precession of the equinoxes was of significance in Mithraism is much more controversial (Beck has rubbished it) and has IMO little evidence in its favour.

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Re: in defence of astrotheology

Post by Peter Kirby »

andrewcriddle wrote:
Peter Kirby wrote: Well, I found something that at least could be relevant (on Wikipedia)...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mithraic_mysteries
Taking a different view from other modern scholars, Ulansey argues that the Mithraic mysteries began in the Greco-Roman world as a religious response to the discovery by the Greek astronomer Hipparchus of the astronomical phenomenon of the precession of the equinoxes — a discovery that amounted to discovering that the entire cosmos was moving in a hitherto unknown way. This new cosmic motion, he suggests, was seen by the founders of Mithraism as indicating the existence of a powerful new god capable of shifting the cosmic spheres and thereby controlling the universe.
Ulansey, D., The origins of the Mithraic mysteries, p. 77f

Some literary sources and some of the physical remains of Mithraism (with the symbolism for the zodiac around the central scene) indicate that the zodiac was important in some strands of Mithraism.
The idea that the Zodiac and the constellations in general were very important in Mithraism is supported by several scholars of Mithraism such as Roger Beck and has a lot of evidence in its favour.

The idea that the precession of the equinoxes was of significance in Mithraism is much more controversial (Beck has rubbished it) and has IMO little evidence in its favour.

Andrew Criddle
Thanks, Andrew. I was just trying to be generous and scraping up something. I agree that its very hypothetical and am not surprised that it might get rubbished. It's not really my idea at all.
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Re: in defence of astrotheology

Post by MrMacSon »

This might interest some; it seems to be Richard Carrier's Columbia University Masters Thesis (1998)
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Re: Hipparchos & the Antikythera Mechanism

Post by billd89 »

Here are a few recent, basic summary articles which might interest someone:

Dating the Instrument
Antikythera Mechanism
Model of the Cosmos
How It Works

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Re: Antikythera Mechanism

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