in defence of astrotheology

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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Peter Kirby
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Re: in defence of astrotheology

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MrMacSon wrote:I contend Christianity was not established when Tertuallian was writing and commenting
In what sense do you mean that?
Make reference to the original sources!!!!!@!
A voice cries out in the wilderness... ;)
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Re: in defence of astrotheology

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MrMacSon wrote:
MrMacSon wrote:I get the impression 'astrotheology' was more a feature of fore-runners to Christianity.
and that may even include Tertullian's commentary: I contend Christianity was not established when Tertuallian was writing and commenting: his writings seemed to help shape Christianity.
  • Tertullian had to assert that Sol was not the Christians' God (Apol., 16; cf. Ad. Nat., I, 13; Orig. c. Cels., VIII, 67, etc);
    Augustine also had to denounce the heretical identification of Christ with Sol (Tract xxxiv, in Joan. In P.L., XXXV, 1652).
Stephan Huller wrote:Why do you continue to cite this pointless summary of 'what a Church Father says.' The information is readily available on line. Make reference to the original sources!!!!!@!
So what do we worship instead? We worship Truth. Get hold of this first, and then learn our whole system.

But a few more lies to dispose of. We don't worship an ass-headed god - we leave that to you, and your Anubis cult. We don't worship the cross, a bit of wood. Worshipping bits of wood - idols - is your trick. In fact the trophies of victory you adore all hang off cross-shaped bits of wood, so that's you, not us, once again.

A few of the more refined of you think we worship the sun. Again, that is your practise, not ours.

Instead we worship the one God, the creator. He gave us books to allow us to know him, unknowable as the infinite is of itself, and sent men to tell us about him. Antiquity is almost a superstition among you - consider the antiquity of these books of the Jews! And among them was Christ born, as they knew he must sometime be. God devised the universe by word, powere and reason, as Zeno the Stoic knew, and your own philosophers have sometimes recognised. And a ray of this power, this light, became man, in the womb of a virgin, and is Christ. For as a ray is projected from the sun, but does not diminish the sun's light, and is of the same nature and substance as the sun's light, but an extension of it, so the son of God has proceeded from God, and is one with Him, and not separated. This is like your own stories.


http://www.tertullian.org/works/apologeticum.htm
It is also worth noting there is not one reference to the name Jesus in that Apologeticum
Ask yourselves then; is Christ divine? If in fact recognising him as such remakes a man and makes him good, then false deity had better be abandoned. Your own writers pay plenty of testimony to other spiritual natures. The books of Moses make clear their nature - they are corrupt angels, demons. They seek to corrupt body and soul, and they can be everywhere, such is their nature that their swiftness passes for divinity. They cause disease, which they are kind enough then to heal! You know how magicians are - imagine what evils the powers they draw upon are like. And such are your gods. Produce one of your 'inspired' men, with his demon, and let any Christian you please talk to him. The demon will soon confess that he is a demon! Try it, and if he doesn't, hang the impudent Christian forthwith. The name of Christ will compell them to talk true, and what then is left of your 'gods', if they admit themselves they are demons?
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GakuseiDon
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Re: in defence of astrotheology

Post by GakuseiDon »

MrMacSon wrote:
GakuseiDon wrote: Okay, that's the 'astro' part down. What about the 'theology' part? That's what's missing from this example. It does seem that the 'theology' part is modern interpretations (by Robert Tulip and other astrotheologists) that don't appear to be evidenced in ancient sources. Perhaps later Christians destroyed that evidence, which might well be possible. (For example, Acharya S suggests that the 'British took over pertinent places' in India, 'possibly with the intent of destroying' evidence about crucified gods.)
There's some food for thought there. It seems likely that the theology in/of astro-theology has been superceded by other theology; maybe more so than theology of astro-theology being suppressed.
I think we need to establish that there was a 'theology' component to 'astrotheology' at play when Roman forts were aligned to the solstices.
MrMacSon wrote:
Problem is that 'astrotheology' is often presented by proponents as so obvious that anyone who disagrees must be motivated by misogyny and bias.
I can understand a charge of bias, but misogyny? b/c Acharya S is or has been a predominant proponent of astrotheology?
Yes. As she writes here in her post 'Ad Homs, Misogyny and Professional Jealousy?':
  • These rabid critics are making a mockery of mythicism with their nonstop displays of poor character and repulsive antisocial behavior. Not to mention the misogyny clearly on display here, as I am constantly being raked over the coals personally, while no one does the same to any of them or any other mythicist. I am the sole vocal female in this field, and I am always being singled out.
MrMacSon wrote:I get the impression 'astrotheology' was more a feature of fore-runners to Christianity.
Examples, please?
It is really important, in life, to concentrate our minds on our enthusiasms, not on our dislikes. -- Roger Pearse
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GakuseiDon
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Re: in defence of astrotheology

Post by GakuseiDon »

MrMacSon wrote:
So what do we worship instead? We worship Truth. Get hold of this first, and then learn our whole system.

But a few more lies to dispose of. We don't worship an ass-headed god - we leave that to you, and your Anubis cult. We don't worship the cross, a bit of wood. Worshipping bits of wood - idols - is your trick. In fact the trophies of victory you adore all hang off cross-shaped bits of wood, so that's you, not us, once again.

A few of the more refined of you think we worship the sun. Again, that is your practise, not ours.

Instead we worship the one God, the creator. He gave us books to allow us to know him, unknowable as the infinite is of itself, and sent men to tell us about him. Antiquity is almost a superstition among you - consider the antiquity of these books of the Jews! And among them was Christ born, as they knew he must sometime be. God devised the universe by word, powere and reason, as Zeno the Stoic knew, and your own philosophers have sometimes recognised. And a ray of this power, this light, became man, in the womb of a virgin, and is Christ. For as a ray is projected from the sun, but does not diminish the sun's light, and is of the same nature and substance as the sun's light, but an extension of it, so the son of God has proceeded from God, and is one with Him, and not separated. This is like your own stories.
This is something that Tertullian, Justin Martyr and others stressed: the Christian stories were similar to the pagan ones. As Justin Martyr famously stated: "And when we say also that the Word, who is the first-birth of God, was produced without sexual union, and that He, Jesus Christ, our Teacher, was crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended into heaven, we propound nothing different from what you believe regarding those whom you esteem sons of Jupiter."
MrMacSon wrote:http://www.tertullian.org/works/apologeticum.htm
It is also worth noting there is not one reference to the name Jesus in that Apologeticum
In fact, FWIW, in "Ad nationes", Tertullian doesn't even mention the word "Christ", much less "Jesus".
Last edited by GakuseiDon on Thu Mar 19, 2015 12:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
It is really important, in life, to concentrate our minds on our enthusiasms, not on our dislikes. -- Roger Pearse
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Re: in defence of astrotheology

Post by MrMacSon »

GakuseiDon wrote:
MrMacSon wrote:I get the impression 'astrotheology' was more a feature of fore-runners to Christianity.
Examples, please?
Mostly just an impression; I don't go delving much into specifics of ancient beliefs though have been fascinated to find out about the cult of Serapis and Isiacism.

One specific example is this -
"Scientists have discovered that an ancient Roman fort/castle built by Emperor Hadrian in the second century AD/CE near Hardknott Pass in Cumbria, England, is aligned astronomically to the winter and summer solstices. Physicist Amelia Carolina Sparavigna of the Polytechnic University of Turin “used online software and satellite imagery to calculate the angles at which the solstice sun rises and sets at the fort.” In her analysis, Sparavigna determined that 'during the summer solstice, the sun would rise in rough alignment with the fort’s northeastern and southwestern gates, and set in alignment with its northwestern and southeastern gates.'

"Furthermore, the southeastern and northwestern gates were built to align with the sunrise at the winter solstice, while its southwestern and northeastern portals mark the sunset during that time. Also, 'the four towers of the garrison seem aligned to cardinal directions'.”

http://astrotheology.net/roman-castle-i ... inter-sun/

"As we know well, numerous other sites globally are aligned to astronomical milestones such as those of the sun, moon, Venus and others. These sites include “several Roman towns in Italy that have alignments with the solstice sun,” as well as the North African town of Timgad, which is “aligned with the direction of the sunrise on the birthday of the Roman Emperor Trajan, who reigned from A.D. 98 to 117.”
... particularly as Hadrian seemed to be a follower of the cult of Serapis (having a serapium) and reportedly had close interactions with Seutonius (who Hadrian employed), Pliny the younger, and Tacitus.
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Re: in defence of astrotheology

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GakuseiDon wrote: This is something that Tertullian, Justin Martyr and others stressed: the Christian stories were similar to the pagan ones. As Justin Martyr famously stated:
  • "And when we say also that the Word, who is the first-birth of God, was produced without sexual union, and that He, Jesus Christ, our Teacher, was crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended into heaven, we propound nothing different from what you believe regarding those whom you esteem sons of Jupiter."
It seems Temples of Jupiter were a thing.
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MrMacSon
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Re: in defence of astrotheology

Post by MrMacSon »

Peter Kirby wrote:
MrMacSon wrote:I contend Christianity was not established when Tertuallian was writing and commenting
In what sense do you mean that?
MrMacSon wrote: It is also worth noting there is not one reference to the name Jesus in Tertullian's Apologeticum
GakuseiDon wrote: In fact, FWIW, in "Ad nationes", Tertullian doesn't even mention the word "Christ", much less "Jesus".
I get the impression Tertuallian was a key developer of the faith: he virtually add the notion of a Trinity to Christianity. He got the idea obscurely from somewhere else.
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Re: in defence of astrotheology

Post by Ulan »

Peter Kirby wrote:Apparently the various claims regarding "astrotheology" are too obvious to bother proving for some, and too unproven to bother with at all for others, leading to a rapid deterioration of the exchange.
It's the discrepancy between the claim that these astrotheological themes in the NT are "obvious" and the provided "evidence", which doesn't amount to anything more than a free association game.

Everyone can play free association games. I can cite an orphic burial tablet, saying "I am a son of Earth and starry sky." It mentions stars, and it's theological, so it is proof that astrotheology is true! Eh, well, that's not how it works.

Truth be told, I find Robert's story of Christ crucified in the sky fascinating. It's a really good read and quite a unique idea. That's the reason why I actually read and write in this thread. I just don't see any evidence that anyone in antiquity had a similar thought.
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Re: in defence of astrotheology

Post by Clive »

Just listening to this series

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b05447pc
The Moral Power of Debt
Promises, Promises: A History of DebtEpisode 1 of 10
Listen in pop-out player

Anthropologist David Graeber explores the ways debt has shaped society over 5000 years. In this episode, he examines the moral power that debt holds over us.

David argues that whenever we think about debt we end up in a deep moral confusion. We resent the "deadbeats" who fail to pay us back and yet many of us believe that people who get us into debt - money lenders - are immoral if not downright evil.

Gangsters like Don Corleone frame what they do in terms of debt. They do so in the knowledge that debt is a powerful tool for taking even pure extortion and making it seem like it's the debtor who is in the wrong. We can't help but believe Don Corleone when he tells us we owe him one.

It's not just gangsters who utilise the moral power of debt. Over the course of history commanders of foreign armies, wealthy landlords, corrupt officials, and local thugs have been able to tell their victims that those victims owe them something. If nothing else, they "owe them their lives" (a telling phrase) because they haven't killed them.

For most of human history, most human beings have been told that they are debtors. In this series, David examines the human consequences which have profound implications for the politics of the present day.

Producer: Max O'Brien
A Juniper production for BBC Radio 4.
We need to move to debt theology.
Debts to the gods and the cosmos are the same thing
"We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
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Peter Kirby
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Re: in defence of astrotheology

Post by Peter Kirby »

Augustine developed it too. From him we get the idea of original sin.

Someone else gives us a theory of atonement. Someone else transubstantiation. Someone else, etc.

Who's to say that 'Christianity' is Trinitarian anyway?

To imply an equivalence between having influence that effects change and bringing about 'establishment' implies an unchanging thing. Maybe this seems like a semantic issue, but clear expression will be of help here, staving off unclear thought or misunderstanding.
"... almost every critical biblical position was earlier advanced by skeptics." - Raymond Brown
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