in defence of astrotheology

[John T]

Those that believe in Astrotheology believe only in what they want to believe, regardless of the historical evidence.

Here is a reconstruction of the historical evidence ...



So what should be believed or what should be disbelieved about this evidence?

Over.




LC

Go back to the first time you posted that picture and this is the caption found below: "The Solarium Augusti (also called Horologium Augusti) was an ancient Roman monument in the Campus Martius constructed during the reign of Augustus. It functioned as a giant solar marker, according to various interpretations serving either as a simple meridian line[1] or as a sundial."

Sundials back then were used as clocks to keep track of time and seasons.
I don't see any proof that the sundial was erected in honor of Jesus the sun-god.

John T

[neilgodfrey]

That "Mythicism Files" blog that recently emerged had a similar take:

Imagine the problem of the historical Jesus as a whodunnit scenario. Countless detectives (mythicist and historicist and agnostic) are there on the scene sleuthing around, diggin' up all the evidence they can, trying to figure out what's going on. There is a body on the ground. Some people are discussing a possible murder weapon. Some the possible motives. Some people are whispering and pointing fingers. Along comes Acharya S, who walks by and takes a look at the chalk outline on the ground and proclaims, 'Aha! It's elementary, my dear Watson ... what we have here is clearly a vertebrate creature of some kind ... a pretty large one ... possibly a simian or an anthropod,' as if this were at all relevant to the case at hand.

That's pretty much what I think, too. Here's another analogy, one from etymology. Open up a good English dictionary and look at the etymology of various words. Some of them will be quite close to their present-day usage and the etymology of such words may still be useful in getting at the current meaning of the word. But at the other extreme, some words will have completely diverged from their etymology, such that etymology of the word is of no value whatsoever in determining the current meaning of the word.

Yes. I don't know of Dr Tony Nugent apart from what I am read in his introduction as a "scholar of world religions and a symbologist" but he seems to me to hit the nail on the head in that article.

The myth of Ishtar does have real parallels with the Christ myth but that does not mean that Jesus was not really crucified or that the evangelists were consciously copying or adapting the Ishtar myth when they crafted their stories of Jesus. To establish any such link as that we would need detailed evidence that we simply don't have. Rather, the myth of Ishtar, alongside comparable myths in the ancient Middle Eastern and Mediterranean worlds is evidence of an idea that permeated those cultures.

Today we don't need to have been directly exposed to the original Superman comics or to the H.G.Wells' War of the Worlds to be able to creatively construct our own stories of super heroes or alien visitors to earth.

We can even create our own stories with contemporary moral messages that, for added spice, indirectly borrow from general cultural motifs of alien visitations or super heroes. In such cases no-one would say that our stories are really trying to teach people about Superman or War of the Worlds. They would be missing the point entirely if they tried to do so.

The number 12, I suspect, almost certainly originally took on significance because of astronomical observations long predating the biblical literature. But we see evidence that over time that same number took on other special meanings unrelated to astronomical phenomena. Numbers in ancient philosophies took on mystical meanings in their own right. By the time the gospels were written with their accounts of 12 disciples and references to 12 tribes of Israel Greek philosophy (Plato's Laws) had long suggested that 12 was the ideal number of tribes by which a new state should be organized.

The evidence at hand points to the evangelists being influenced by, say, the general idea of the importance of the number 12 as a result of exposure to the OT. Further studies that might demonstrate, say, evangelists' knowledge of other Greek literature may lead to additional influences. None of this disputes the very probable fact that the original significance of the number 12 derived from astronomical observations but it does render that original meaning irrelevant for the specific purpose of explaining the immediate influences that led the authors to choose certain imagery in the gospels.

Arguments for astrotheology appear to me to set aside all the immediate evidence (i.e. the literary and cultural influences immediately experienced by the evangelists) in order to assert that the original astronomical significance of, say, 12, was the primary influence on the gospels. To sustain this argument they claim the sorts of evidence we have for other influences is lacking because it has been suppressed/destroyed by later powers who wanted to hide it.

No-one can argue against such a conspiracy. It is unfalsifiable. If it is true then sadly we have no way of verifying it.

But if the evidence we do have is what we would expect on hypotheses that do not involve such conspiracies then we have valid grounds for going with those and setting aside the conspiracy theory.

Another point I think is significant here is that those who argue for astrotheology also appear to believe in the objective truth of astrotheology as a religion. If this is correct then we have yet another set of apologists: instead of people committing errors of confirmation bias in order to justify "scholarly" arguments for their conventional religious views we have people committing the same sorts of confirmation bias in order to justify "scholarly" arguments for their astrotheological religious beliefs.

In both cases where apologetics are involved we have the apologists sometimes resorting to accusations of "sinfulness" or "moral hypocrisy" and such like to explain the failure of others to be persuaded. Such charges of course demonstrate that the argument they are presenting is not entirely scholarly but fundamentally an attempt to proselytize or witness to "Truth" and, no doubt with very well-meaning intentions, offer people some form or variant of a healthier way of life, or "salvation" of some sort.

This accounts for the moral dimension (of moral praise and moral condemnation) that regularly surfaces whenever one engages with someone seeking to advance the views of astrotheology.

[neilgodfrey]

Of course I use the number 12 as a [what's that part of speech that means a small part is used to represent a much larger complex of things?]

[Sheshbazzar]

The number 12, I suspect, almost certainly originally took on significance because of astronomical observations long predating the biblical literature. But we see evidence that over time that same number took on other special meanings unrelated to astronomical phenomena. Numbers in ancient philosophies took on mystical meanings in their own right.

The number 12 is significant for a simple and fundamental fact and 'law' of geometry, one that was well known to the ancients and is subtly expressed in hundreds of verses of Scripture.
That being the basic 3-4-5 'Builders Rule' which applies regardless of the time, culture, god, form of religion, or 'philosophy'.

In any system of Standardized linear measurement, it will be found that perfect squares and rectilinear figures are formed by application of the 3-4-5 rule forming a 'RIGHT TRIANGLE' (the sum of which perimeter is exactly 12 exactly equal units.)
The RIGHT ANGLE, 90 degrees, (5400 minutes or 324000 seconds) formed by the 3-4 'legs' has the sum of 7 units. 'SEVEN'.
Any triangle will consist of exactly 3 straight intersecting lines. The sum of the angles in any triangle is always 180 degrees.
3 times, three 'building' lines, Read of the plummet, surveying line, and measuring reed.
What they are employed in, and what they establish again and again, then and today, is immutable. Holy, Holy, Holy.

A 'square' or 'rectilinear' figure of any dimension has 4 connecting legs and a sum of 360 degrees in its four perfectly square 90 degree angles. (21600 minutes or 1296000 seconds)

Keep these invariable geometrical facts in mind as they are basic and fundamental to comprehension of the nature of the Scriptural texts.
Ezekiel chapters 40-48 'goes bananas' in this matter of Standard UNITS employed in the measuring, describing, and numbering of equal sized geometrical figures, and also other standardized fixed Standards of Weights and Measures.

Now I will point out a few things obvious, ...and some not so obvious.

15 days = 360 hours = 21600 = minutes = 1296000 seconds.
90 days = 2160 hours = 129600 = minutes = 7776000 seconds
105 days = 15 full 'weeks' = 2520 hours = 151200 minutes = 9072000 seconds
The half thereof 7.5 weeks = 52.5 days = 1260 hours = the 24th part of 1260 days.

Unless you have a birth defect, or have lost a finger or thumb, you will have the Standard ten digits on your two hands.
Very convenient calculating tools. Most adult persons have learned how to count and add on their ten fingers (digits).
Note that each such finger so accounted is employed as a whole unit, with no one measuring and assigning a different numerical value to each finger based on them not all appearing as exactly the same size and length.

Now if you will follow, I'll lead you into some ancient and simple exercise of your ten digits.
Lift up your left hand. What do you see? Can you count them? Four fingers and one thumb? Five digits? being 1-2-3-4 and 5.

Try now this simple exercise 1+2+3+4+5 = ? What sum do you arrive at ?
Would that sum be any different if you were from another country, a member of a different religion, a theist or an atheist ?

Now extend this to so successively accounting your 10 fingers, thus; 1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+9+10 = ?
Would that sum be any different if you were from another country, a member of a different religion, a theist or an atheist ?

Next, a little multiplication using the same calculating tool. 1x2x3x4x5 = ?
Would that product be any different if you were from another country, a member of a different religion, a theist or an atheist ?

Now extend this to so successively multiplying your 10 digits, thus; 1x2x3x4x5x6x7x8x9x10 = ?
Would the product so derived be any different if you were from another country, a member of a different religion, a theist or an atheist ?

Maybe Captain Obvious here, and this all old hat to you, yet none the less I will point out that there are exactly 3,628,800 minutes in 360 full weeks, which is 2520 days; (60,480 hours = 3,628,800 minutes = 217,727,000 seconds)
That would be 168 divisions of 15 days (recall that one full week has 168 hours)
And 2520 days has 24 divisions of 2520 hours (15 full weeks, being 7 divisions of 15 days, or 7 divisions 360 hours)

Now, if you are capable, visualize a bit of geometry and spatial relations;
90 days has 2160 hours, the same number of degrees as are in the twenty four 90 degree angles of a cube.
2520 days contain 28 divisions of 2160 hours.
(28 hours = 1680 minutes = 1/6 part of 168 hours. A cube has 6 perfectly equal faces. A seventh face, if there were such, would be by nature 'set apart'. 15 weeks has 15 weekly 'set apart' Sabbaths, one every seventh day, the count always beginning at day one, the first day of the week(s) )
"‘You shall do no injustice in judgment, in measurement of length, weight, or volume."

But this little is not even the thousandth part of what I can tell you about time and measure.

The Hebrews did not invent the disciplines of geometry or Standard measurement, they inherited natural math and geometry Standards from earlier Sumerian and Babylonian cultures, and employed them extensively in their calculations of measurements of building, boundaries, and of units of time in the calculating the fixed timing of their religious observances.
What is often most confusing, was their ability to integrate this very ancient standardized math and geometry with the solar and lunar 'year' calendars, which are by nature unequal, and much subject to subjective judgments, and to officious sounding religious declarations ruling over the lives of men.

When one diligently performs enough 'observations', of space and time, the solutions become ever more obvious and inescapable.
The knowledge that mankind has forgotten and was 'lost' under ages long dictatorial religious duress imposed upon humanity, will be called to remembrance. And the refreshing of ancient knowledge will as certainly as time, blossom into a new age.


Sheshbazzar

[Leucius Charinus]

Sundials back then were used as clocks to keep track of time and seasons.

They had an purpose for those who's theology was related to astronomy. Entities like Helios, Venus, Hermes ... surely you know these entities.

I don't see any proof that the sundial was erected in honor of Jesus the sun-god.

That is not the fundamental proposition being discussed here John. The proposition being discussed is the expanded definition of the term astrotheology, its application to the material evidence of all forms of sun worship, and extending to other celestial bodies.

But there is an open Jesus question to date .... Was Jesus supposed to born in midwinter, and supposed to have died at the vernal equinox?

A simple yes or no might suffice.




LC

[Leucius Charinus]

The number 12, I suspect, almost certainly originally took on significance because of astronomical observations long predating the biblical literature. But we see evidence that over time that same number took on other special meanings unrelated to astronomical phenomena. Numbers in ancient philosophies took on mystical meanings in their own right. By the time the gospels were written with their accounts of 12 disciples and references to 12 tribes of Israel Greek philosophy (Plato's Laws) had long suggested that 12 was the ideal number of tribes by which a new state should be organized.

The evidence at hand points to the evangelists being influenced by, say, the general idea of the importance of the number 12 as a result of exposure to the OT. Further studies that might demonstrate, say, evangelists' knowledge of other Greek literature may lead to additional influences. None of this disputes the very probable fact that the original significance of the number 12 derived from astronomical observations but it does render that original meaning irrelevant for the specific purpose of explaining the immediate influences that led the authors to choose certain imagery in the gospels.

Arguments for astrotheology appear to me to set aside all the immediate evidence (i.e. the literary and cultural influences immediately experienced by the evangelists) in order to assert that the original astronomical significance of, say, 12, was the primary influence on the gospels. To sustain this argument they claim the sorts of evidence we have for other influences is lacking because it has been suppressed/destroyed by later powers who wanted to hide it.

No-one can argue against such a conspiracy. It is unfalsifiable. If it is true then sadly we have no way of verifying it.

Well I have consistent attempted to discuss the Christian takeover of Midwinter and the Vernal equinox.

Did the authors of the NT purposefully select these two astrological events of the year for the birth and death of their main character?





LC

[Leucius Charinus]

The number 12, I suspect, almost certainly originally took on significance because of astronomical observations long predating the biblical literature. But we see evidence that over time that same number took on other special meanings unrelated to astronomical phenomena. Numbers in ancient philosophies took on mystical meanings in their own right.

The number 12 is significant for a simple and fundamental fact and 'law' of geometry, one that was well known to the ancients and is subtly expressed in hundreds of verses of Scripture.
That being the basic 3-4-5 'Builders Rule' which applies regardless of the time, culture, god, form of religion, or 'philosophy'.

In any system of Standardized linear measurement, it will be found that perfect squares and rectilinear figures are formed by application of the 3-4-5 rule forming a 'RIGHT TRIANGLE' (the sum of which perimeter is exactly 12 exactly equal units.)
The RIGHT ANGLE, 90 degrees, (5400 minutes or 324000 seconds) formed by the 3-4 'legs' has the sum of 7 units. 'SEVEN'.
Any triangle will consist of exactly 3 straight intersecting lines. The sum of the angles in any triangle is always 180 degrees.
3 times, three 'building' lines, Read of the plummet, surveying line, and measuring reed.
What they are employed in, and what they establish again and again, then and today, is immutable. Holy, Holy, Holy.

A 'square' or 'rectilinear' figure of any dimension has 4 connecting legs and a sum of 360 degrees in its four perfectly square 90 degree angles. (21600 minutes or 1296000 seconds)

Keep these invariable geometrical facts in mind as they are basic and fundamental to comprehension of the nature of the Scriptural texts.
Ezekiel chapters 40-48 'goes bananas' in this matter of Standard UNITS employed in the measuring, describing, and numbering of equal sized geometrical figures, and also other standardized fixed Standards of Weights and Measures.

Now I will point out a few things obvious, ...and some not so obvious.

15 days = 360 hours = 21600 = minutes = 1296000 seconds.
90 days = 2160 hours = 129600 = minutes = 7776000 seconds
105 days = 15 full 'weeks' = 2520 hours = 151200 minutes = 9072000 seconds
The half thereof 7.5 weeks = 52.5 days = 1260 hours = the 24th part of 1260 days.

Unless you have a birth defect, or have lost a finger or thumb, you will have the Standard ten digits on your two hands.
Very convenient calculating tools. Most adult persons have learned how to count and add on their ten fingers (digits).
Note that each such finger so accounted is employed as a whole unit, with no one measuring and assigning a different numerical value to each finger based on them not all appearing as exactly the same size and length.

Now if you will follow, I'll lead you into some ancient and simple exercise of your ten digits.
Lift up your left hand. What do you see? Can you count them? Four fingers and one thumb? Five digits? being 1-2-3-4 and 5.

Try now this simple exercise 1+2+3+4+5 = ? What sum do you arrive at ?
Would that sum be any different if you were from another country, a member of a different religion, a theist or an atheist ?

Now extend this to so successively accounting your 10 fingers, thus; 1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+9+10 = ?
Would that sum be any different if you were from another country, a member of a different religion, a theist or an atheist ?

Next, a little multiplication using the same calculating tool. 1x2x3x4x5 = ?
Would that product be any different if you were from another country, a member of a different religion, a theist or an atheist ?

Now extend this to so successively multiplying your 10 digits, thus; 1x2x3x4x5x6x7x8x9x10 = ?
Would the product so derived be any different if you were from another country, a member of a different religion, a theist or an atheist ?

Maybe Captain Obvious here, and this all old hat to you, yet none the less I will point out that there are exactly 3,628,800 minutes in 360 full weeks, which is 2520 days; (60,480 hours = 3,628,800 minutes = 217,727,000 seconds)
That would be 168 divisions of 15 days (recall that one full week has 168 hours)
And 2520 days has 24 divisions of 2520 hours (15 full weeks, being 7 divisions of 15 days, or 7 divisions 360 hours)

Now, if you are capable, visualize a bit of geometry and spatial relations;
90 days has 2160 hours, the same number of degrees as are in the twenty four 90 degree angles of a cube.
2520 days contain 28 divisions of 2160 hours.
(28 hours = 1680 minutes = 1/6 part of 168 hours. A cube has 6 perfectly equal faces. A seventh face, if there were such, would be by nature 'set apart'. 15 weeks has 15 weekly 'set apart' Sabbaths, one every seventh day, the count always beginning at day one, the first day of the week(s) )
"‘You shall do no injustice in judgment, in measurement of length, weight, or volume."

But this little is not even the thousandth part of what I can tell you about time and measure.

The Hebrews did not invent the disciplines of geometry or Standard measurement, they inherited natural math and geometry Standards from earlier Sumerian and Babylonian cultures, and employed them extensively in their calculations of measurements of building, boundaries, and of units of time in the calculating the fixed timing of their religious observances.
What is often most confusing, was their ability to integrate this very ancient standardized math and geometry with the solar and lunar 'year' calendars, which are by nature unequal, and much subject to subjective judgments, and to officious sounding religious declarations ruling over the lives of men.

When one diligently performs enough 'observations', of space and time, the solutions become ever more obvious and inescapable.
The knowledge that mankind has forgotten and was 'lost' under ages long dictatorial religious duress imposed upon humanity, will be called to remembrance. And the refreshing of ancient knowledge will as certainly as time, blossom into a new age.


Sheshbazzar

Thanks very much for this post and its contents Sheshbazzar. I am always impressed by the complexity of things reduced to simplicity of things. Numbers, how they are represented and their significance is a fascinating study. Our hands and fingers are about as simple as it gets. Thanks again for your observations and for taking the time to share them here.



LC

[neilgodfrey]

Well I have consistent attempted to discuss the Christian takeover of Midwinter and the Vernal equinox.

Did the authors of the NT purposefully select these two astrological events of the year for the birth and death of their main character?

I don't know of any NT author who selected midwinter as the birth of Jesus. And there also seems to have been some disagreement over whether or not the death occurred on the vernal equinox.

[arnoldo]

Well I have consistent attempted to discuss the Christian takeover of Midwinter and the Vernal equinox.

Did the authors of the NT purposefully select these two astrological events of the year for the birth and death of their main character?

I don't know of any NT author who selected midwinter as the birth of Jesus. And there also seems to have been some disagreement over whether or not the death occurred on the vernal equinox.

The NT authors "selected" the birth and death of Jesus to coincide with Jewish festivals. . . for example . . .

The Birth of Yeshua During Sukkot

The Scriptures seem to indicate to us that Yeshua was born during the festival season of Sukkot (Tabernacles). In fact, I believe that He was born on the Feast of Sukkot (which is Tishrei 15 on the biblical calendar, and is analogous to our September/October). With this in mind, let's look for some evidence of this in the Bible.
http://www.hebroots.com/sevenfestivals_chap9.htm

[neilgodfrey]

The NT authors "selected" the birth and death of Jesus to coincide with Jewish festivals. . . for example . . .

The Birth of Yeshua During Sukkot

The Scriptures seem to indicate to us that Yeshua was born during the festival season of Sukkot (Tabernacles). In fact, I believe that He was born on the Feast of Sukkot (which is Tishrei 15 on the biblical calendar, and is analogous to our September/October). With this in mind, let's look for some evidence of this in the Bible.
http://www.hebroots.com/sevenfestivals_chap9.htm

Another theory is Michael Goulder's lectionary reading: he places the birth narratives of both Matthew and Luke in the second month, Iyyar, in between Passover and Pentecost.

I've heard it argued that Luke most definitely did not place the birth in winter: notice the shepherds are still out in the open night air with their flocks instead of having them sheltered in a barn.