Leucius Charinus wrote:
Well I have consistent attempted to discuss the Christian takeover of Midwinter and the Vernal equinox.
Did the authors of the NT purposefully select these two astrological events of the year for the birth and death of their main character?
I don't know of any NT author who selected midwinter as the birth of Jesus. And there also seems to have been some disagreement over whether or not the death occurred on the vernal equinox.
The NT authors "selected" the birth and death of Jesus to coincide with Jewish festivals. . . for example . . .
The Birth of Yeshua During Sukkot
The Scriptures seem to indicate to us that Yeshua was born during the festival season of Sukkot (Tabernacles). In fact, I believe that He was born on the Feast of Sukkot (which is Tishrei 15 on the biblical calendar, and is analogous to our September/October). With this in mind, let's look for some evidence of this in the Bible. http://www.hebroots.com/sevenfestivals_chap9.htm
Thanks very much for this information and neilgodfrey and arnaldo.
I am unaware of anything specific in the NT. For the period prior to Christianity becoming the preferred religion of the Roman empire, there may be information from the church father organisation. It seems to be the case that only when Christianity became an imperial instrument were the specific festival times of mid-winter and the vernal equinox appropriated from the pagan (astrotheological) festivals. The date of easter was apparently an item of agenda nailed out at Nicaea in 325 CE, while the midwinter date looks to have been decided c.336 CE.
Remember we do not have the iconography of a human figure on a cross until the 7th century. Before that it was a lamb. Some fundamental modern ideas about Christianity in antiquity did not apply until many centuries after the 1st century. It looks like these pagan astrotheological events (mid winter and the vernal equinox) as applied to Jesus did not commence until the 4th century.
LC
A "cobbler of fables" [Augustine]; "Leucius is the disciple of the devil" [Decretum Gelasianum]; and his books "should be utterly swept away and burned" [Pope Leo I]; they are the "source and mother of all heresy" [Photius]
Leucius Charinus wrote:
Did the authors of the NT purposefully select these two astrological events of the year for the birth and death of their main character?
Was this a trick question I responded to? You wrote in response:
Leucius Charinus wrote:I am unaware of anything specific in the NT.
vridar.orgMusings on biblical studies, politics, religion, ethics, human nature, tidbits from science
One clue for the antiquity of Christmas is the Gospel description of Jesus and John being six months different in age, and the 'you must increase, i must decrease' line from John 3:30. These suggest an astral solstice meaning for Jesus and John, as carried over into their feast days.
My sense here is that the astral meaning of the two solstices mapping the year must have been a big part of early Christianity, like in the Mithraic equinox images of the ascending and descending torches. If there was a very big mystery culture that was intentionally obliterated by the imperial stability agenda of Christendom, it helps to explain why natural symbolic explanations of texts such as the increase/decrease line have been lost.
Leucius Charinus wrote:
Did the authors of the NT purposefully select these two astrological events of the year for the birth and death of their main character?
Was this a trick question I responded to? You wrote in response:
Leucius Charinus wrote:I am unaware of anything specific in the NT.
No neil. I need to probably retract the first question. The authors of the NT don't agree on the year and date for the birth. Therefore there could be no purposeful astrotheological significance about the birth of Jesus, except perhaps the "Star" - like Julius Caesar? The star could be related??
We celebrate Jesus' birth on Christmas, but no one really knows what day Jesus was born, or even exactly what year.
In 336 A.D., the Western Church, based in Rome, chose December 25 to celebrate as Christmas, meaning "Christ's Mass."
As a result the defence of an astrotheological significance of the birth does not seem able to be held until the 4th century. I guess the same applies to the death. Ergo, the NT itself contains no direct and specific astrotheological pointers with the birth and death that I posited in the OP.
LC
Last edited by Leucius Charinus on Sat Feb 21, 2015 5:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
A "cobbler of fables" [Augustine]; "Leucius is the disciple of the devil" [Decretum Gelasianum]; and his books "should be utterly swept away and burned" [Pope Leo I]; they are the "source and mother of all heresy" [Photius]
Robert Tulip wrote:One clue for the antiquity of Christmas is the Gospel description of Jesus and John being six months different in age, and the 'you must increase, i must decrease' line from John 3:30. These suggest an astral solstice meaning for Jesus and John, as carried over into their feast days.
From my comments and notes above, any precise dates don't seem to have been agreed upon until the 4th century. Yes the 6 months difference is a significant, but how can it be pinned to astronomical cycles until this late date?
My sense here is that the astral meaning of the two solstices mapping the year must have been a big part of early Christianity, like in the Mithraic equinox images of the ascending and descending torches. If there was a very big mystery culture that was intentionally obliterated by the imperial stability agenda of Christendom, it helps to explain why natural symbolic explanations of texts such as the increase/decrease line have been lost.
Unless the church fathers have something significant to add, how can we obtain any evidence that the early cult worshipped any specific (astrologically related) dates?
It seems more reasonable that the "the imperial stability agenda" imposed these specific motifs. Late.
LC
A "cobbler of fables" [Augustine]; "Leucius is the disciple of the devil" [Decretum Gelasianum]; and his books "should be utterly swept away and burned" [Pope Leo I]; they are the "source and mother of all heresy" [Photius]
Robert Tulip wrote:One clue for the antiquity of Christmas is the Gospel description of Jesus and John being six months different in age, and the 'you must increase, i must decrease' line from John 3:30. These suggest an astral solstice meaning for Jesus and John, as carried over into their feast days.
My sense here is that the astral meaning of the two solstices mapping the year must have been a big part of early Christianity, like in the Mithraic equinox images of the ascending and descending torches. If there was a very big mystery culture that was intentionally obliterated by the imperial stability agenda of Christendom, it helps to explain why natural symbolic explanations of texts such as the increase/decrease line have been lost.
It would be completely out of the question, no doubt, to refer to the clues (a few of them cited in posts above by arnoldo and myself) that the references to the 5 and 6 months in Luke's gospel related to Jewish festivals and not the festivals introduced into Christianity centuries later, yes? Quite a nonsensical idea, no doubt, yes?
vridar.orgMusings on biblical studies, politics, religion, ethics, human nature, tidbits from science
There seems to be some confusion here about legitimately asking questions about the relationships of the stars and religions, astrology, and astronomy. They are separate areas!
"We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
Clive wrote:
There seems to be some confusion here about legitimately asking questions about the relationships of the stars and religions, astrology, and astronomy. They are separate areas!
allegedly 'from' a pre-Christian 'God' -
A god I am, such as I show to thee,
The starry heavens my head; my trunk the sea;
Earth forms my feet; mine ears the air supplies;
The sun's far-darting, brilliant rays mine eyes.
... Macrobius regarded the Alexandrian Isis as the same with the Ephesian Diana, for the ancient Isis of Egypt had only the usual complement of breasts. This philosopher had started with the axiom (i. 17), "Omnes deos referri ad Solem*," and begins by demonstrating from the various epithets of Apollo, that he was the same god with the one styled the Sun. He then proceeds to prove the same of Bacchus, Hermes, Aesculapius, and Hercules.
Clive wrote:
There seems to be some confusion here about legitimately asking questions about the relationships of the stars and religions, astrology, and astronomy. They are separate areas!
allegedly 'from' a pre-Christian 'God' -
A god I am, such as I show to thee,
The starry heavens my head; my trunk the sea;
Earth forms my feet; mine ears the air supplies;
The sun's far-darting, brilliant rays mine eyes.
... Macrobius regarded the Alexandrian Isis as the same with the Ephesian Diana, for the ancient Isis of Egypt had only the usual complement of breasts. This philosopher had started with the axiom (i. 17), "Omnes deos referri ad Solem*," and begins by demonstrating from the various epithets of Apollo, that he was the same god with the one styled the Sun. He then proceeds to prove the same of Bacchus, Hermes, Aesculapius, and Hercules.
