Apollos - Apelles

[Stephan Huller]

Jesus is the tradition God of Israel which somehow (perhaps because of the influence of earliest Christianity) was abandoned subsequently by Jews. Look again at Peregrinus/Polycarp/Nurono - a man standing in fire - to what is written in Deut 5,4-5. Here the motif of standing, as in Exodus 33, is juxtaposed with the imagery of the divine Panim:

The Lord spoke with you face to face at the mountain, out of the fire. At that time I was standing between the Lord and you to declare to you the words of the Lord; for you were afraid because of the fire and did not go up the mountain

Here Moses is depicted as standing before the Face of the Deity and mediating the divine presence to the people. These developments of the motif of standing are intriguing and might constitute the conceptual background of the later identifications of Moses with the office of the angel of the presence. As we saw the idiom of standing also plays a significant part in the Exagoge account that has Moses approach and stand before the throne.

In the extra-biblical Mosaic accounts one can also see a growing tendency to depict Moses’ standing position as the posture of a celestial being. Crispin Fletcher-Louis observes that in various Mosaic traditions the motif of Moses’ standing was often interpreted through the prism of God’s own standing, indicating the prophet’s participation in divine or angelic nature. He notes that in Samaritan and rabbinic literature a standing posture was generally indicative of the celestial being. Jarl Fossum points to the tradition preserved in Memar Marqah 4,12 where Moses is described as “the (immutable) Standing One." Think Simon Magus too =the standing one.

In 4Q377 2 vii-xii, the standing posture of Moses appears to be creatively conflated with his status as a celestial being:

And like a man sees li[gh]t, he has appeared to us in a burning fire, from above, from heaven, and on earth he stood on the mountain to teach us that there is no God apart from him, and no Rock like him ... But Moses, the man of God, was with God in the cloud, and the cloud covered him, because [...] when he sanctified him, and he spoke as an angel through his mouth, for who was a messen[ger] like him, a man of the pious ones?

[Stephan Huller]

Jesus (Eeshu) is just a preservation of the original (secret) god of Israel. Peregrinus/Polycarp/Ignatius is just trying to take things one step further than Paul. It's a lot like Mani when you think about it.

[robert j]

But yeah, Paul's letters are clearly pre 70 and it's evident which order they were written...

For the 7 letters generally considered to be authentic, in what order do you believe they were written? And since you believe the order is evident, if you have the time, perhaps you might share the evidence to support your proposed sequence.

[perseusomega9]

Shouldn't use white font for sarcasm tags in the future

[perseusomega9]

Jesus (Eeshu) is just a preservation of the original (secret) god of Israel. Peregrinus/Polycarp/Ignatius is just trying to take things one step further than Paul. It's a lot like Mani when you think about it.

You mean by his self-immolation? What about the letters attributed to him, especially he being big on anti-docetism?

[Stephan Huller]

Irenaeus says one thing but remember even Irenaeus the greatest bullshitter of all time can't fool the Roman church. He has to admit that Florinus spent more time with Polycarp than he. Florinus was thus a great authority on Polycarp's teaching (and the fact that Polycarp wasn't even his name is reflected by the fact that his teaching goes unnamed = 'the elder' in Adv Haer). And Florinus was also a Valentinian.

[Peter Kirby]

Since this is all conjecture and no serious scholar would take this seriously and we know Paul wrote all 13, 10, 7, 4 of the epistles attributed to him with only a few strongly attested text critical interpolations and glosses, does anyone think that the Ignatian epistles were written to supplant the Pauline writings with another competing letter collection to various churches?

I regard the Apocalypse according to John as a seminal text in early Christianity. In it we find the purest form of the idea of 7 letters to 7 churches, embedded in the proper context of the number symbolism of the Apocalypse, completely absent from the letters attributed to Paul and Ignatius. Thus we can take the author of the Muratorian Canon very seriously when he avers that the letters of Paul were modeled, as a collection, after the Apocalypse.

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/t ... rian4.html
It is necessary to discuss these separately, since the blessed envoy himself followed the example of Johannes who preceded him, and he wrote to not more than seven assemblies, in this order... Although he wrote one more time to the Korinthians and to the Thessalonikans for their correction, it is recognizable that one assembly has spread across the whole globe of the earth. For in the in the Revelation, Johannes writes indeed to seven assemblies yet is speaking to all.

Now actually I do see merit in your proposal. After all the Ignatian epistles fight a lot of the errors that were being expounded from the letters of Paul. They are also addressed to 7 recipients, like the Marcionite canon (if you allow the combination of 1Cor-2Cor, 1Th-2Th, and Col-Phlm).

There are indeed several salvos in the response to the Marcionite testament:

(1) Layer 1 - The letters attributed to Ignatius, which do not make the canonical cut as it may have indeed wished. Paul turns out to be too big to play down by omitting him from the canon.

(2) Layer 2 - The Gospel of the Lord is written as the Gospel of Luke, and the Acts of the Apostles are joined to it in order to recast Paul in narrative form as the mirror image of Peter. (This is roughly where Justin abides, but with the use of a harmony including canonical Luke.)

(3) Layer 3 - The Pastorals are written. The Apostolikon is expanded with catholic interpolations. Paul is canon. (Tatian is here and is indeed attributed with some amendations to the text of Paul.)

Next up: Irenaeus, enter stage left.

Not all of it ends up in the New Testament layer cake.

PS - Irony noted!

[Leucius Charinus]

"Apollo" (Greek Apollos), who is often mentioned as a Pauline colleague (Acts 18:24; 19:1; 1 Cor 1:12; 3:4, 5, 6, 22; 4:6; 16:12; Titus 3:13), may be a transparent disguise for Apelles, a disciple of Marcion who, however, struck out on his own, revising Marcionite theology in some respects.
- Robert Price, in The Amazing Colossal Apostle

The connection may be even more transparent than suggested:

http://www.jstor.org/stable/3263641

Kilpatrick mentions witnesses to the form "Apelles" in both of the references in Acts 18:24, 19:1. He believes it is the original text.

There is also the possibility that this is a reference to Apollonius of Tyana. Codex Bezae has "Apollonius".



LC

[Stephan Huller]

Really based on the fucking variant in one text? That alone would justify turning Christianity upside down. Glad that few other people are convinced by such an idiotic suggestion.

Why don't you take a year off from this forum and develop this brilliant suggest into a peer reviewable paper? Brilliant idea.

[Leucius Charinus]

Thayer's Lexicon = "Apollos" is, according to some ancient authorities, contracted from "Apollonios"


http://www.bible-history.com/isbe/A/APOLLOS/

• APOLLOS
  
  a-pol'-os (Apollos, the short form of Apollonius):

LC